Off topic: Macar Kardeşler Caddesi
Thread poster: Csaba Ban

Csaba Ban  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 17:08
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Jun 1, 2006

Dear friends,
I am sorry to write in English. I am trying to find out the origin of this street name in Istanbul. I know it means "Hungarian brothers", but does it refer to? How long has this street been called this name?

Any help is greatly appreciated.


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Semra Maden-Balamir  Identity Verified
Local time: 17:08
German to Turkish
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Re: Jun 2, 2006

Hi Csaba,

first of all, sorry because of my English. English is not my working language.

I think, the term "Macar Kardesler" is a metaphor and refers to a nationalist group of Hungarians, which was at war with the Habsburgs and moved later on to Turkey (circa 2.000 men). Imre Thököly and Francis II Rákóczi were only two of them.

I don't know since when this street has been called "Macar Kardesler Caddesi".

Semra


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Özden Arıkan  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 17:08
Member
English to Turkish
No success yet, though... Jun 2, 2006

Hi Csaba,

Your interpretation that the street's name means "Hungarian brothers" should be correct, but theoretically there are other possibilities: "Hungarian sisters", "Hungarian brother(s) and sister(s)", "our brothers the Hungarian", or even "Hungarian brethren". I am not listing these to get you confused, and most probably the name simply refers to 'brothers', as you said, but just for the sake of caution, I wanted to mention other possibilities. After all, with reference to the last possibility, there's some documentation about Hungarian prominence in the initial Masonic activities in what is now Turkey, so the street name might well have a hidden -or now forgotten- reference to Hungarian Masonic brothers.


This said, the presence and activities of Hungarians and Poles in the Ottoman times are well known and fairly well documented, as far as I can see. And although I haven't had any success yet at finding an answer to your question, my instincts tell me that the name refers to some actual people. As Hungarians had been Ottoman subjects for about four centuries, of course they had an important presence in the imperial capital, played various roles in the court, in cultural, scientific, political realms. However, many of them were devşirme or later adopted the dominant culture in some way, hence got converted and changed their names, and any immediately recognizable reference to their Hungarian origin was lost. I think the most famous of such people was İbrahim Müteferrika, who pioneered the printing press in 1700s. There was also this wave of Hungarian and Polish nationalists who took refuge in Ottoman soil in the 19th century fleeing the Habsburg Austrians and Russians. According to one account, Russians claimed them back, and Sultan Abdülmecid said he would give away his own head, but not the refugees. These refugees were highly enlightened people and those who stayed gained prominence in the cultural and artistic life. Even that their offsprings are reported to have helped in the formulation of the new alphabet and made other linguistic contributions in the early republican days. In fact, in a lot of work done with the early revolutionist enthusiasm of that period, one can find a reference to a Hungarian in all areas, from aviation to music and linguistics. This page has a load of Hungarian names in this context. (If you are interested to know more about this page, or any other Turkish source, for that matter, I will try to help you as much as I can.) Also, here there is a reference to two Hungarian masters who came to Istanbul to pursue a musical career under the influence of Ferenc/Franz Liszt's accounts. There's no other information or reference, though, and one cannot tell whether they were brothers.



So much for a posting that doesn't provide an answer to the real question However, there must have been a reason for that street name, and I believe we can find it. Not necessarily on the Internet, though. (One note of caution on online sources: my impression is that in many of them historical account seems to be in the service of political theory, which makes research a difficult task here.) To cut it short, if you can have some patience, I want to search a couple of offline sources, and see whether we could find who these Macar kardeşler were.

Regards,
Özden

[Edited at 2006-06-02 18:36]


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Csaba Ban  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 17:08
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
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TOPIC STARTER
Thank you Jun 3, 2006

Thank you for both of you so far.

This is definitely not urgent. I am writing a book about a year of travel in Asia and I would like to find out the origin of this particular street name in Istanbul (which I noticed when taking a bus service from the Aquaduct to Chora Church near the walls).

I am sorry but I have to correct something. Ottoman occupation in some parts of Hungary (about 1/3) lasted much less than 400 years. The period lasted between 1526 and 1699, but actual, firm control lasted only between 1541 and 1686.

Some time ago I posted another question on this Turkish forum. I would be interested to find out Ottoman names (if they existed) of towns in Hungary. I assume that at least administration centers (of vilayets, sancaks, perhaps down to nahiye level) and sites of some decisive battles (campaigns of 1552 and 1566, for example) would have Turkish names, or at least separate Turkish spellings (transcribed in Latin script).

I wonder if there is any detailed historical atlas published in modern Turkey that would list several place names in each of the provinces of the Ottoman Empire.

The famous traveller Evliya Chelebi wrote detailed accounts of Hungary when he visitited this region in the 1620's, but in Hungary only Hungarian translations are available, and of course, all place names are in Hungarian. Perhaps this could be a good source of Ottoman-era place names in Hungary.

Thank you for any and all effort, but do not over-exert yourself. After all, these questions are just my pre-occupations, and not yours.


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Nizamettin Yigit  Identity Verified
Turkey
Local time: 18:08
Dutch to Turkish
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H-Turk Jun 3, 2006

Hi,

You may want to take a look at to these sites or communicate with them
.
http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-turk&month=0111&week=c&msg=qhc2YU+LMTRfR8jp5r372Q&user=&pw=

http://www.ottomanist.org

You may also search for some of the key words that you can come up wıth.

Good luck,

Nizam


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Nizamettin Yigit  Identity Verified
Turkey
Local time: 18:08
Dutch to Turkish
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tontoon
Turkey
Local time: 18:08
German to Turkish
+ ...
Hungarian Brothers Jun 5, 2006

Hi,

i'm living since 34 years next to this street. I know definetly that it means the Hungarian brothers. Why it is called so I can't tell.

I don't know about the Turkish Names of Hungarian Citys, but i know that the Ottomans called the Region next to Austria "Nemçe" (Nemche).


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Baybars Araz  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:08
English to Turkish
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a small correction Jun 12, 2006

ilker ingiz wrote:

Hi,

i'm living since 34 years next to this street. I know definetly that it means the Hungarian brothers. Why it is called so I can't tell.

I don't know about the Turkish Names of Hungarian Citys, but i know that the Ottomans called the Region next to Austria "Nemçe" (Nemche).


Austria was called as "Nemçe" by Ottomans, not the region next to Austria...


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