commas

English translation: first one not required, IMO; comma after decreases

00:31 Dec 20, 2008
English language (monolingual) [PRO]
Science - Science (general) / scientific writing
English term or phrase: commas
Please advise on the use of commas in the following sentence:

It has been established that (,) as the crack length decreases (,) the main plastic zone at the crack tip substantially reduces.
Nik-On/Off
Ukraine
Local time: 14:49
Selected answer:first one not required, IMO; comma after decreases
Explanation:
IMO, it should read:

It has been established that as the crack length decreases, the main plastic zone at the crack tip substantially reduces.

Good luck.

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Note added at 6 mins (2008-12-20 00:37:25 GMT)
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http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_comma.html
The comma is a valuable, useful punctuation device because it separates the structural elements of sentences into manageable segments. The rules provided here are those found in traditional handbooks; however, in certain rhetorical contexts and for specific purposes, these rules may be broken.

1. Use commas to separate independent clauses when they are joined by any of these seven coordinating conjunctions: and, but, for, or, nor, so, yet.

and so on and so forth.

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Note added at 6 days (2008-12-26 11:33:42 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Thank you too Nik On/Off. Happy holidays.
Selected response from:

Taña Dalglish
Jamaica
Local time: 06:49
Grading comment
Thank you all very much!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



SUMMARY OF ALL EXPLANATIONS PROVIDED
4 +12first one not required, IMO; comma after decreases
Taña Dalglish
4 +4no comma after 'that'
Kim Metzger
5 +3neither
Jennifer Levey
3 +2commas in both cases
Nesrin


Discussion entries: 3





  

Answers


12 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +4
no comma after 'that'


Explanation:
No comma after 'that' because 'as the crack length decreases' is a restrictive clause. A comma is required after 'decreases' because it follows an introductory element.

It has been established that as the crack length decreases, the main plastic zone is subtantially reduced at the crack tip.

Kim Metzger
Mexico
Local time: 05:49
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Jennifer Levey: I agree with your first statement. But not with the second because there is only one item after the introductory element.
8 mins
  -> In American English, we typically use commas after introductory elements. "Before I received my diploma, my father gave me a car."

agree  Simon Mac: This would be my natural tendency (UK) and you get my 'agree' for your explanation
23 mins

agree  kironne: Also agree :)
1 hr

agree  Dylan Edwards: I agree with punctuating for clarity. 'as the crack length decreases' between commas looks as if it could mean 'because the crack length decreases'. 'decreases the main plastic zone' looks like a verb with its object.
11 hrs

agree  chaman4723: No comma after 'that'
11 hrs
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14 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +3
neither


Explanation:
If I were editing that text I would delete BOTH commas.

Source: 25+ years in technical editing for readers of international English.

Jennifer Levey
Chile
Local time: 07:49
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Polangmar: If the phrase isn't a parenthetical insertion, you don't need any commas.
20 mins
  -> Hmmm Thanks. But do you know the English expression 'Sitting on the fence'? In your opinion, is there a 'parenthetical insertion' in the source text?

agree  Aldona Parra
1 hr

agree  kironne: Also agree. There is no parenthetical insertion.
1 hr

disagree  Egil Presttun: I have explained my point of view in the discussion field above.
13 hrs

agree  SJLD: I would delete both commas and put "as the crack length decreases" at the end of the sentence - problem solved.
1 day 11 hrs
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11 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
commas in both cases


Explanation:
I'm not very good on explaining why, but I would put commas in both cases, though I'm sure Taña suggestion isn't wrong.

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Note added at 18 mins (2008-12-20 00:49:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Ok here's an explanation: It's a parenthetical clause which has been inserted in the main clause:

"Here's an example of where commas should be used to make the sense clearer:

There is also a feeling that even when they want to people cannot link language to their sentiments.

This reads better with commas indicating the parenthetical clause: There is also a feeling that, even when they want to, people cannot link language to their sentiments.

In this parenthetical form, the commas mark out a qualification or a condition. In this case it is an intensifier. " http://www.litencyc.com/stylebook/stylebook.php

Nesrin
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:49
Works in field
Native speaker of: Arabic
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Eneida Gonzalez
22 mins

agree  Polangmar: If the phrase is a parenthetical insertion, you need two commas.
22 mins

neutral  Simon Mac: To me, this doesn't appear to be a parenthetical insertion - if you remove that part of the sentence it no longer makes sense
29 mins

neutral  Sheila Wilson: In the example given, yes - 2 commas required. In the text in question, I agree with the above comment
6 hrs
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3 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +12
first one not required, IMO; comma after decreases


Explanation:
IMO, it should read:

It has been established that as the crack length decreases, the main plastic zone at the crack tip substantially reduces.

Good luck.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 mins (2008-12-20 00:37:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_comma.html
The comma is a valuable, useful punctuation device because it separates the structural elements of sentences into manageable segments. The rules provided here are those found in traditional handbooks; however, in certain rhetorical contexts and for specific purposes, these rules may be broken.

1. Use commas to separate independent clauses when they are joined by any of these seven coordinating conjunctions: and, but, for, or, nor, so, yet.

and so on and so forth.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 days (2008-12-26 11:33:42 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Thank you too Nik On/Off. Happy holidays.

Taña Dalglish
Jamaica
Local time: 06:49
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
Thank you all very much!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Operator1973 (X): I think you are just right
5 mins
  -> Thank you so much. Appreciate the "agree". Best wishes for the Holidays!

agree  Kyle Petersen: However the sentence is very awkward. Try: It has been established that the main plastic zone at the crack tip is substantially reduced as the crack length decreases. (Still somewhat awkward with word choice). Perhaps edge of crack instead of crack tip.
7 mins
  -> Thanks very much Kyle. While a tad "strange", that is what we have in front of us to work with. Again ta!

neutral  Jennifer Levey: Your version doesn't need a comma either. And 'reduces' should come before 'substantially', not before. Better still, 'reduces' --> 'is subst. reduced' - but that's a different Kuestion...
20 mins
  -> Sorry Media - as it relates to the question at hand, I disagree with your answer - the comma is needed; and secondly, "is substantially reduced" is a totally different question and one which we were not asked to comment on (& this you stated). Sorry!

agree  Samantha Payn
1 hr
  -> Thank you so much Samantha. Your validation is much appreciated. Happy holidays!

agree  kironne: Agree :)
1 hr
  -> Many thanks kironne. Appreciate your invaluable support. Un abrazo y ¡felices fiestas!

agree  Sheila Wilson: Assuming it isn't going to be rewritten, then the sentence benefits from a comma after "decreases", although I'm not sure it's essential.
6 hrs
  -> Thanks Sheila. Appreciate your comments. Season's greetings.

agree  Jack Doughty: First comma not essential but not wrong, though in my opinion better without it; second comma necessary.
8 hrs
  -> Thank you Jack. Appreciate your informed validation. Happy holidays!

agree  Alexandra Taggart
9 hrs
  -> Thank you Alex. I appreciate your support. Merry Christmas.

agree  Dylan Edwards
11 hrs
  -> Thank you very much Dylan. Much appreciated. Happy holidays!

agree  chaman4723
11 hrs
  -> Thank you chaman. Appreciate your support. Season's greetings.

agree  Egil Presttun
13 hrs
  -> Thank you so much Egil. Appreciate it. Happy holidays.

agree  Lalit Sati
17 hrs
  -> Thank you so much Lalit. Your support is appreciated. Merry Christmas!

agree  Phong Le
1 day 7 hrs
  -> Thank you very much Phong. I appreciate it. Happy holidays.
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