ProZ.com global directory of translation services
 The translation workplace
Ideas
KudoZ home » English » Business/Commerce (general)

Where should NOT be placed?

English translation: the main thing is NOT to give up


Login or register (free and only takes a few minutes) to participate in this question.

You will also have access to many other tools and opportunities designed for those who have language-related jobs
(or are passionate about them). Participation is free and the site has a strict confidentiality policy.
14:29 Jan 21, 2012
English to English translations [PRO]
Marketing - Business/Commerce (general)
English term or phrase: Where should NOT be placed?
1) the main thing is not to give up (73,800 to 144,000 Google hits)

2) the main thing is to not give up (wrong position/splitting the infinitive, but 2,350,000 Google hits)

Thanks!
Igor Kreknin
Local time: 22:53
English translation:the main thing is NOT to give up
Explanation:
forget about Google hits

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 mins (2012-01-21 14:49:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

truth is both are acceptable but as a native speaker I much prefer the first option as the second is less than elegant and sounds unnatural ... my 2 cents

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 mins (2012-01-21 14:50:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

you also avoid splitting the infinitive
Selected response from:

David Hollywood
Local time: 16:53
Grading comment
Thanks a lot!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +11the main thing is NOT to give up
David Hollywood
4 +6not to give up
Editor James
3 +2the main thing is to not give up
Henry Schroeder
Summary of reference entries provided
WebCorp & phras.in
Michael Beijer
more reliable statisticsPolangmar

Discussion entries: 5





  

Answers


18 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +11
where should not be placed?
the main thing is NOT to give up


Explanation:
forget about Google hits

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 mins (2012-01-21 14:49:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

truth is both are acceptable but as a native speaker I much prefer the first option as the second is less than elegant and sounds unnatural ... my 2 cents

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 mins (2012-01-21 14:50:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

you also avoid splitting the infinitive

David Hollywood
Local time: 16:53
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 40
Grading comment
Thanks a lot!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Lingua.Franca: I agree. Forget Google hits!
4 mins
  -> not always as reliable as they might seem these Googles :) thanks LF

agree  Polangmar
31 mins
  -> thanks Polangmar :)

agree  Paul Lambert: Yes. Split infinitives are seen more and more, but it only reflects a growing illiteracy in society. Avoid it at all costs.
1 hr
  -> thanks Paul:)

agree  Elzbieta Petlicka
1 hr
  -> thanks Elzbieta :)

agree  Tina Vonhof
2 hrs
  -> thanks Tina :)

agree  David Moore
2 hrs
  -> thanks David :)

agree  Jenni Lukac
3 hrs
  -> thanks Jenni y saludos :)

agree  Charles Davis: I forgot to agree!
3 hrs

agree  trsk2000: Google hits are overrated
5 hrs

agree  Allison Wright: "the main thing" is held in apposition to "(not) to give up", as in the "to be" in both parts of the famous, "To be or not to be, that is the question" discussed below by Editor James. You are negating "to give up", not "give up" .
1 day17 hrs

agree  British Diana: With Allison. However Henry from US has a point. I often proof-read texts written intentionally in BE by AE users and this is one of the places where I can detect that they are AE people after all.
1 day22 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +6
where should not be placed?
not to give up


Explanation:
"To give up, or not to give up," as Shakespeare might ponder. I agree with him.
Saying "To give up, or to not give up" splits an infinitive, which is sometimes accepted, but here it results in awkward English.
The same would apply in the famous quotation: "To be, or to not be."
(Did I hear someone turn over?)
Google? Sometimes helpful, but not dependable.


Editor James
United States
Local time: 15:53
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Paul Lambert: Excellent argument
32 mins
  -> Appreciated, Paul. Thanks much.

agree  Tina Vonhof: Indeed, to not be sounds awkward.
1 hr
  -> Hello, Tina. I'm glad to hear you agree.

agree  David Hollywood: very well put :) I can hear him turning too (ouch) lol ... lang may his lum reek as the Scots would say :)
3 hrs
  -> David, thank you. I'll call in my Scottish translator tomorrow. (:-}

agree  Charles Davis: I think Tina has put her finger on it: it sounds awkward in this case (to me at least, and evidently to others).
3 hrs
  -> That she did. Thank you for your good comment, Charles.

agree  Alexandra Taggart: Artistic, succinct answer!
3 hrs
  -> Kind words, Alexandra, for which I am grateful.

agree  Allison Wright: David Hollywood beat you to it, though.
1 day16 hrs
  -> We remain friends, though. Thanks for writing, Allison.
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

22 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
where should not be placed?
the main thing is to not give up


Explanation:
This is a matter of taste. I'm just being provocative by offering the other option to David's.

Strictly speaking, David is right.

In the US, however, in speech, you virtually never hear David's formulation.

Even in writing, it is fairly infrequent.

I believe in the UK David's formulation is more common and in academic writing, it certainly is.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 24 mins (2012-01-21 14:53:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The reason you receive more google hits for my answer (to NOT give up) is similar to what I explained above. Blogs and much of the writing on the web is informal. It resembles speech. Hence, the popularity of "to NOT give up". In general, this is a classic example of language in transition.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2012-01-21 16:23:34 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

<B>Harvard</B>

The University welcomes the decision of Occupy Harvard to remove most of the tents it had erected in Harvard Yard. In light of the voluntary removal of most of the tents and of the discussion yesterday, the University has evaluated the safety and speech considerations it has been seeking to balance from the outset of the encampment, and ****plans to not require***** a Harvard ID for access to the Yard from 7 a.m. to 10 p.m., starting Thursday, December 22.

http://www.harvard.edu/protest-at-harvard

Yale Promises Not to Reinvest in HEI | News | The Harvard Crimson
www.thecrimson.com/.../Yale-Invest-HEI-Not/ - Diese Seite übersetzen
Nov 29, 2011 – Occupy Harvard's push for the University ****to not reinvest*** in HEI Hotels & Resorts—a corporation under investigation by the National Labor ...

Even the universities in the US are splitting it. I'm not saying David is wrong, I'm saying both are possible and accepted. It depends on your audience. In my novels, for example, it depends on the level of the narrator's education, his formality, and other aspects of his character.

This is the great thing about English: we are fairly free, at least in this realm.


Henry Schroeder
United States
Local time: 15:53
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Polangmar: One does NOT receive more Google hits for "the main thing is to not give up" - see my reference. || "The different one" gives even more hits in favor of "not to" - after I have explained the Google workings I must more strongly disagree with your numbers.
5 mins
  -> Alright, let's take a different one: "the main thing is not to rush" (11,400) vs. "to not rush" (111,000)

disagree  Paul Lambert: Splitting the infinitive is wrong. If the bad habit happens to be more widespread in the US than elsewhere, it makes no difference. To learned readers everywhere, the split infinitive is distracting. It is not natural at all.
1 hr
  -> "Right" and "wrong" is very complicated in language. Every development or change in the evolution of language was "wrong" at first, as were many great literary texts. In speech, in the US, the split infinitive is LESS confusing than the non-split one. :-)

agree  Charles Davis: I myself would certainly say "not to give up", but I agree with the basic point you are making here.
2 hrs
  -> Thanks!

agree  yx37029: This is certainly what I would say as a UK native, although I might write "to not give up". I think your answer is "both are correct in certain circumstances" and I agree with that. I will quite happily split my infinitives in speech.
2 hrs
  -> Thanks!

disagree  trsk2000: the split infinitive is both grammatically and stylistically incorrect
5 hrs
  -> I'm surprise English is your native language, but your profile photo is good! I

agree  Alexandra Taggart: Studying a little this "splitting" i feel more relaxed about it. Sure, it doesn't sound as rhythmic as in "To be, or not to be", but nothing proves that it is unnatural or incorrect.
5 hrs

agree  Neil Mann: I'd personally prefer "not to give up" (cf. Tennyson: "To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield") but if I were writing for a US audience (in particular) & didn't want to seem to formal or stuffy, I'd probably use "to not give up." Brit in Manhattan.
2 days8 hrs
  -> You are brave to express an non-conformist view on these pages. Not surprisingly you are a native speaker and based in NY. Are you in Bedford-Stuyvesant?

agree  Cilian O'Tuama: Splitting the infinitive is not wrong. But some people don't like it. // Watch who you're calling 'old' :-)
2 days21 hrs
  -> Thanks! The old guard! Preceded me... I've taken a break from these board for a while. But Johanna's still here, Nicole, you. Hope you're well!
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)




Reference comments


27 mins peer agreement (net): +1
Reference: WebCorp & phras.in

Reference information:
Here are two more useful resources for comparing usage.


    Reference: http://phras.in/to%20not%20give%20up/not%20to%20give%20up
    Reference: http://www.webcorp.org.uk/live/
Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in DutchDutch

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  Polangmar: Yes, if the short phrase "not to give up" has 381 000 hits, it's impossible for the longer "the main thing is to not give up" to have millions.
18 mins
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

11 mins peer agreement (net): +3
Reference: more reliable statistics

Reference information:
the main thing is not to give up - about 261 Google hits: http://tinyurl.com/7m9mvz7
the main thing is to not give up - about 166 Google hits: http://tinyurl.com/7ec6gtx

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 38 mins (2012-01-21 15:07:08 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

the main thing is not to rush - about 149 Google hits: http://tinyurl.com/8xvnmhf
the main thing is to not rush - about 56 Google hits: http://tinyurl.com/836zoz7

Polangmar
Poland
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in PolishPolish
PRO pts in category: 12

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  Charles Davis: This is just to register my agreement with your warning about numbers of Google hits, something on which I have commented here several times myself. The number initially announced is almost always grossly exaggerated, for reasons I don't understand.
2 hrs
  -> Yes, the astronomical numbers are misleading, especially if your setting is 10 hits/page (sadly, Google automatically "imposes" this setting and you have to change it manually to 100 hits/page on each new search page).
agree  yx37029: Correct - I've double checked and as you go through the pages the numbers gradually go down to the figures you mention. Bing gives lower results from the outset, but they still reduce to about the same.
2 hrs
agree  David Moore: Actually, google has recently changed its way of counting; lately I try enclosing phrases in "", and google keeps deleting them - if you don't notice, you CAN get astronomical figures. Flamin' google???? Forget it!
3 hrs
  -> Yes - and you always wonder what's better to do: to click on a Google prompt and lose your initial inverted comma or to finish the phrase manually (thus saving it).
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)




Return to KudoZ list


KudoZ™ translation help
The KudoZ network provides a framework for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases.



See also: