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The asker opted for community grading. The question was closed on 2012-01-25 20:54:07 based on peer agreement (or, if there were too few peer comments, asker preference.)
English to English translations [PRO] General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters / Knowledge on or of?
English term or phrase:Knowledge on Nature
I have this term on a translation and my french client is not happy when I write knowledge "of" nature.
She wants to establish a difference that is easier to express in French. She tells me: that connaissance "sur" la nature is not the same thing that connaissance "de" la nature.
Is that nuance possible in English?
Explanation: Yes, the difference IS possible, though 'sur' in FR is perhaps better rendered by 'about' in EN.
However, it has to be said that neither of the two expressions sounds particularly natural or idiomatic in EN; it would have helped if you'd given us the whole sentenc in which it appears, but in the absence of that, i'd still suggest trying to rephrase it a bit, to avoid having to use the noun 'knowledge' at all — which can often sound awkward in EN.
Can you say soemthing like "knowledgeable about nature", for example?
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 14 minutes (2012-01-22 18:48:46 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
You may also want consider another word for 'connaissance', e.g. sometimes 'familiarity with' works better than 'knowledge of'...
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 39 minutes (2012-01-22 19:13:08 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
That's why the context is so important!
Compare:
"His knowledge of Welsh dialects is second to none"
"She has a great deal of knowledge on a broad range of subjects / in / across many fields"
"In the 12th century, there wasn't a great deal of knowledge about dual-core processors"
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 heure (2012-01-22 20:07:28 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
"knowledge on" is not inherently wrong, I just don't think it is the best fit here.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 heure (2012-01-22 20:10:25 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
If it is a concept, then you surely do need to give us more context, so we can judge for ourselves just what this 'concept' involves, and hence which preposition is likely to be most apposite here.
Synonyms do exist, insofar as synonymity is a useful and widely used concept and does not have to be perfect. To use Collins' dictionary's example of "bucket" and "pail", you could say that a bucket is used for washing floors and a pail for milking cows; but they are frequently used interchangeably, especially now that milking parlours have replaced milkmaids. The fact that we all eventually kick the bucket rather than the pail doesn't mean that the word "bucket" has a meaning related to death that differentiates it from "pail".
Also, a bottle of milk cannot "expire" even though it may be said to be past its expiry date. Of course, what is really meant is that the period before the "best before" or "use by" date on the milk bottle has expired. If you were giving a lengthy and sad account of Fido's last illness, you could say "... and then, with a final wag of his little tail and a pitiful moan, poor dear Fido expired." You would not be guilty of misusing the word "expired" (though you would be guilty of mawkishness).
Point taken. I should learn to pay more attention to my titles. I was only trying to introduce the topic, whilst keeping within the 50 characters. 1. I am perfectly aware that "knowledge" does NOT mean "information". 2. Anyone who has studied semantics knows that synonyms do not exist. Take the example of "die" and "expire": would we say "the dog expired" and "the bottle of milk died"? No. 3. I think most English-speaking people would agree that if a person is a "source + of + information" it also means that the person is a "source + of + knowledge". Or vice versa. 4. Yes, I agree that "knowledge" is "the possession of information" but ellipsis is extremely common nowadays. Although I admit I am only referring to the trends in the languages I speak. I have absolutely no idea how other people express themselves in other languages. I hope I have finally managed to make myself understood, without being disrespectful to anyone.
Knowledge, information and the correct preposition
21:34 Jan 22
A dictionary provides information about the meanings of words. Using that information, being a member of a linguistic community that uses the vocabulary concerned, together with intelligent processing of experience, context, register etc. you can attain knowledge of what words of the language in question are the best choice for particular contexts and how to string them together. No, Helena, knowledge does not "= information", it is more profound. It is also more than Tony's suggested "possession of information", as it requires experience and intelligent processing of information.
"Knowledge on nature" is wrong as "knowledge" can take the prepositions "of" or "about" but not "on". You can also have knowledge concerning or regarding something.
In the title of your post, you said "Knowledge = information", didn't you?
In my book that little '=' certainly implies 'synonym', as indeed you later said "it means the same thing".
Well, as for those linguists, I guess it all depends just how broadly one interprets 'synonym' — certainly, sometimes in these pages, people seem to suggest words mean the same thing, even though they would not (necessarily) be directly interchangeable in all (or even some) cases.
NS OED:
"synonym
1 A word or phrase having the same sense as another in the same language. Also, a word having the same general sense or denoting the same thing as another in the same language, but having a different emphasis or appropriate to a different context (as serpent, snake; Greek, Hellene; happy, joyful; kill, slay), or having a different range of other senses (as ship, vessel; tube, pipe).
...
2 A name, idea, expression, etc., which is suggestive of or strongly associated with another."
I haven't said they were synonyms. Actually, according to linguists, there are no real synonyms in English. I just said that "source of knowledge" and "source of information" meant the same thing. I purposely steered clear of the word "synonym"!
I can't entirely agree with your comment below; whilst in some circumstances knowledge may amount to ifnormation, it would be misleading to a language learner, for example, to imply that they are direct synonyms and could be used interchangeably.
NS OED highlights some nuances of meaning in its definitions of 'knowledge' which indicate that in some meanings, it is certainly not a direct synonym.
For example, I might say "I phoned for information about train times" — in that sentence, it would sound completely odd to replace 'information' with 'knowledge'.
Conversely, in the example I mentioned in my suggestion, "His knowledge of Welsh dialects is second to none", it would sound decidely awkward to replace 'knowledge' with information.
One might even say that 'knowledge' is in fact 'the possession of information'.
One last example: "I researched for weeks in dusty, ancient volumes for information that would help me increase my knowledge of the old Dutch masters."
When a person is a source of knowledge or a source of information, it means the same thing.
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Answers
32 mins confidence:
knowledge on nature
nature awareness
Explanation: Just a suggestion: "connaissance "sur" la nature" could be translated as "nature awareness" and "connaissance "de" la nature" could be translated as knowledge about nature". Mind you, I know/am aware that my French is a bit rusty!
Explanation: Yes, the difference IS possible, though 'sur' in FR is perhaps better rendered by 'about' in EN.
However, it has to be said that neither of the two expressions sounds particularly natural or idiomatic in EN; it would have helped if you'd given us the whole sentenc in which it appears, but in the absence of that, i'd still suggest trying to rephrase it a bit, to avoid having to use the noun 'knowledge' at all — which can often sound awkward in EN.
Can you say soemthing like "knowledgeable about nature", for example?
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 14 minutes (2012-01-22 18:48:46 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
You may also want consider another word for 'connaissance', e.g. sometimes 'familiarity with' works better than 'knowledge of'...
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 39 minutes (2012-01-22 19:13:08 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
That's why the context is so important!
Compare:
"His knowledge of Welsh dialects is second to none"
"She has a great deal of knowledge on a broad range of subjects / in / across many fields"
"In the 12th century, there wasn't a great deal of knowledge about dual-core processors"
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 heure (2012-01-22 20:07:28 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
"knowledge on" is not inherently wrong, I just don't think it is the best fit here.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 heure (2012-01-22 20:10:25 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
If it is a concept, then you surely do need to give us more context, so we can judge for ourselves just what this 'concept' involves, and hence which preposition is likely to be most apposite here.
Tony M France Local time: 03:05 Works in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 137
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Notes to answerer
Asker: In fact, the text I'm translating repeats this hundreds of times since it is a concept. I'm even surprised to see that National Geographic Magazine defines itself as a "Great Source of Knowledge on Nature".