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“上一下二”

English translation: two subordinate offices under one department


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01:55 Mar 19, 2009
Chinese to English translations [PRO]
Social Sciences - Government / Politics
Chinese term or phrase: “上一下二”
I'm racking my brains for an elegant way to translate this. Here's the context:

同时,政府职能机构设置过多过细,形成“上有下有”、“上一下二”或“上一下三”甚至“上无下有”的机构设置格局
KM KM
Local time: 18:19
English translation:two subordinate offices under one department
Explanation:
[PDF] LIST OF ATTACHED & SUBORDINATE OFFICES/ ORGANISATIONS UNDER THE ...File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
LIST OF ATTACHED & SUBORDINATE OFFICES/ ORGANISATIONS UNDER. THE DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRIAL POLICY AND PROMOTION,. NEW DELHI. I. ATTACHED OFFICES. S.No. ...
www.dipp.nic.in/rti/rti_indu_material/induction_material/at... - Similar pages
Classification Manual (Revised July 1993), Chapter 1 - Class StemMar 1, 2001 ... A publication should be classified under the subordinate office printed on .... two equally subordinate bureaus under the same department, ...
www.gpo.gov/su_docs/fdlp/pubs/classman/cl_ch1.html - 29k - Cached - Similar pages
Selected response from:

pkchan
United States
Local time: 06:19
Grading comment
Thanks very much everyone!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
3 +1one boss managing two workersLucidity
3 +1delegated authority
Lucy Hill
3 +1less or no placement at upper level and more placement at lower level
Rock Niu
3 +1two subordinate offices under one department
pkchan
Summary of reference entries provided
关于当前行政执法工作的思考: 一个县往往有40多个行政执法机构 ...chica nueva

  

Answers


47 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
two subordinate offices under one department


Explanation:
[PDF] LIST OF ATTACHED & SUBORDINATE OFFICES/ ORGANISATIONS UNDER THE ...File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
LIST OF ATTACHED & SUBORDINATE OFFICES/ ORGANISATIONS UNDER. THE DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRIAL POLICY AND PROMOTION,. NEW DELHI. I. ATTACHED OFFICES. S.No. ...
www.dipp.nic.in/rti/rti_indu_material/induction_material/at... - Similar pages
Classification Manual (Revised July 1993), Chapter 1 - Class StemMar 1, 2001 ... A publication should be classified under the subordinate office printed on .... two equally subordinate bureaus under the same department, ...
www.gpo.gov/su_docs/fdlp/pubs/classman/cl_ch1.html - 29k - Cached - Similar pages

pkchan
United States
Local time: 06:19
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in ChineseChinese
PRO pts in category: 40
Grading comment
Thanks very much everyone!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  chica nueva: 有可能但是IMO不一定 见造成一部法律法规同时有几个单位在执法Could it be several agencies administering one piece of legislation (not necessarily in the same department?)
2 days3 hrs
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58 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
less or no placement at upper level and more placement at lower level


Explanation:
the setting of functional mechanism in the government is too redundant and punctilious, resulting in less or no placement at upper level and more placement at lower level

Rock Niu
China
Local time: 18:19
Native speaker of: Native in ChineseChinese

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  chica nueva: http://www.rdyj.com.cn/2005/rdqk-2-15.html 也许。可不可以再继续解释吗?placement 具体是指什么? 原文涉及到县内的行政执法工作的机构设置格局
2 days3 hrs
  -> you are right, gotta analyse the context and the specific structures in this system to select appropriate terms and depict this super-bureaucracy in a more accurate and detailed manner.
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7 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
delegated authority


Explanation:
... delegates its authority to anything between 2 and even 5 sub-departments

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Note added at 7 hrs (2009-03-19 09:01:37 GMT)
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sorry, not reading properly... delegates its authority to many sub-departments as far as losing a cohesive governing body altogether

Lucy Hill
Local time: 11:19
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  chica nueva: 原文涉及到县内的行政执法工作的机构设置格局 http://www.rdyj.com.cn/2005/rdqk-2-15.html
1 day21 hrs
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19 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
one boss managing two workers


Explanation:
If I understand correctly, the sentence is saying the management structure is overly-complex with with too many managers. I would worry about translating the four idioms precisely. The crucial term is 职能机构设置过多过细 , which I might translate as "overly-complex management structure" or perhaps "hyper-bureaucracy".

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Note added at 19 hrs (2009-03-19 21:19:04 GMT)
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* I think the other answerers here also recognize the key term is 职能机构设置过多过细 because their answers seem to be more a translation of this term than of “上一下二”.

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Note added at 19 hrs (2009-03-19 21:20:41 GMT)
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Sorry, in the above I meant to say "I wouldN'T worry about translating the four idioms precisely", not "would worry".

Lucidity
Local time: 06:19
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  chica nueva: http://www.rdyj.com.cn/2005/rdqk-2-15.html 原文涉及到县内的行政执法工作的机构设置格局
1 day9 hrs
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Reference comments


2 days4 hrs peer agreement (net): +1
Reference: 关于当前行政执法工作的思考: 一个县往往有40多个行政执法机构 ...

Reference information:
http://www.rdyj.com.cn/2005/rdqk-2-15.html
关于当前行政执法工作的思考

一、当前执法现状

1.机构过多过滥。一个县往往有40多个行政执法机构,涉及执法类别几十种,几乎每个行政主管部门都成立了一支执法队伍,有的甚至成立了5~6支执法队伍。如建设行政主管部门下设房产、城管等6个执法机构,并相应地组建了6支执法队伍。同时,政府职能机构设置过多过细,形成“上有下有”、“上一下二”或“上一下三”甚至“上无下有”的机构设置格局,造成一部法律法规同时有几个单位在执法,“大盖帽”满天飞,各行其是。

二、原因透析

2.执法体制没有理顺。①现行法律法规不健全,内容不完善,规定过于原则,过于简单,弹性大,自由裁量权大,不易于操作。

三、对策与建议

1.改革行政执法体制,建设“少而精”的行政执法队伍。①调整立法理念,提高立法质量。立法部门应当从大多数人民群众的根本利益出发,提高法律法规的可操作性,斩断部门伸向人民群众的“黑手”,进一步规范行政执法程序。②合理设置执法机构。当务之急是贯彻实施“相对集中行政处罚权”,可按执法类别相近或相关原则进行集中(如将农业、林业、水利、气象、农机、畜牧等执法机构进行集中),建设高素质的“少而精”的执法队伍,提高执法效率。③划清职能,理顺关系,实现部门行政向公共行政转变。立法部门在制定法律法规规章时,应明确具体地划分各部门的职能,授权实施部门也应明确具体。各级政府在实施“相对集中行政处罚权”时应理顺关系,做到“从上到下一条线”,禁止交叉、重复、分支。

->
同时,政府职能机构设置过多过细,形成“上有下有”、“上一下二”或“上一下三”甚至“上无下有”的机构设置格局,造成一部法律法规同时有几个单位在执法,“大盖帽”满天飞,各行其是。
...
各级政府在实施“相对集中行政处罚权”时应理顺关系,做到“从上到下一条线”,禁止交叉、重复、分支。

In summary:
一个县... 造成一部法律法规同时有几个单位在执法:

我估计,政策与执法已经分两层(但这是猜得,谁能确定?)
‘上’指主管部门 = policy departments; ‘下’政府职能机构 government agencies

上有下有 = policy department and agencies enforcing (duplication)
上一下二 = authority for same legislation delegated to 2 agencies
上一下三 = authority for same legislation delegated to 3 agencies
(branching/splitting)
上无下有 = rules being enforced by agencies, without proper authority from above (1 therefore no accountability, appeal etc, and potential for abuse, 2 maybe even refers to non-existent rules)

-> 各级政府... 应理顺关系,做到“从上到下一条线”,禁止交叉、重复、分支。

[交叉 bottlenecks? cross-linkages between agencies, are dealt with separately]

chica nueva
New Zealand
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 40

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  Rock Niu: these are more detailed and specific explanation, however we need to contact the insider or author to be sure
1 day3 hrs
  -> Thank you!
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