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it shall be committed or otherwise

English translation: with or without malice

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14:32 Nov 3, 2003
English to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents / Law report /insurance term
English term or phrase: it shall be committed or otherwise
it is immaterial whether the offence was committed "from malice conceived against the owner of the property in respect of which it shall be committed or otherwise".

Thanks everyone who has been helping me!! Thanks for answering my question in advance.
Kaori Myatt
France
Local time: 11:02
English translation:with or without malice
Explanation:
It does not matter whether the offence was committed from malice or not from malice.

The tense of "shall be committed" is strange - I'd rather say "was committed", and I'd put a comma before "or otherwise". Commas are often frowned on in legal documents.

Another term is "with intent" and another "mens rea", indicating intention to do harm.
Selected response from:

David Knowles
Local time: 10:02
Grading comment
Thanks David! for your quick reply. Other answers were also very helpful.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
5 +1with or without malice
David Knowles
5 +1against which (the offence) is committed
Andy Watkinson
4 +1Use of "shall" to indicate hypothesis
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
3The offense shall be assessed in its own right, irrespective of ...
jerrie


  

Answers


44 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
with or without malice


Explanation:
It does not matter whether the offence was committed from malice or not from malice.

The tense of "shall be committed" is strange - I'd rather say "was committed", and I'd put a comma before "or otherwise". Commas are often frowned on in legal documents.

Another term is "with intent" and another "mens rea", indicating intention to do harm.

David Knowles
Local time: 10:02
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 612
Grading comment
Thanks David! for your quick reply. Other answers were also very helpful.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  DGK T-I: it doesn't matter whether the offence was[past,present or future tenses possibly all do same job here,if it's hypothetical:-)] committed(done:-)from malice (ie:with a malicious intention against the owner[of the property]) or not
53 mins
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
against which (the offence) is committed


Explanation:
it is immaterial whether the offence was committed "from malice conceived against the owner of the property in respect of which it shall be committed or otherwise

it is of no great importance whether the offence was committed with malice against the owner of the property against which the offence was committed or otherwise.

I don't think it's referring to a past event, but "providing" for a future one. e.g. "In such an event, it is (will be) immaterial whether......

i.e. a long-winded way of repeating "the owner's property"



Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 11:02
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 33

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  DGK T-I: agree - I find several different tenses can sometimes be used in such situations (eg:general statements of law about hypothetical circumstances in cases & contracts, rather than specific events at a given time) without altering the meaning (with care:-)
25 mins
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
The offense shall be assessed in its own right, irrespective of ...


Explanation:
whether it was committed out of/due to/ arising from malice against the owner of the property.

Malice borne against the owner of the property shall not be used as grounds for defence, where damage to the owner's property is concerned.

It is immaterial whether the offense was committed out of malice towards/against the owner of the property or not, in the case of damage to the owner's property.

A few attempts at trying to render sense, but I'm not 100% sure!

jerrie
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:02
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 773
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
Use of "shall" to indicate hypothesis


Explanation:
"It is immaterial whether the offence was committed from malice conceived against the owner of the property in respect of which it shall be committed or otherwise".

Whether the offence was committed with malicious intent against the owner of the property is of no importance.


The use of "shall" here is old style English - which legalese is full of - to indicate a hypothetical siutation.

Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Local time: 11:02
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 26

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  DGK T-I
6 hrs
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