Engineers Forum

English translation: formally correct

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)

English term or phrase:	Engineers Forum
Selected answer:	formally correct
Entered by:	Fuad Yahya

11:47 Feb 20, 2006

English language (monolingual) [PRO]
Art/Literary - Linguistics / Grammar/spelling/usage

English term or phrase: Engineers Forum

Let us say, this is a forum meant for engineers. Would the correct phrase for such a forum be

Engineers Forum
Engineer's Forum (with an apostrophe after engineer), or
Engineers' Forum (with an apostrophe after engineers)

Balasubramaniam L. KudoZ activity Questions: 17 (none open) (1 closed without grading) Answers: 982 India
Local time: 13:44

formally correct

Explanation:
Leaving aside the issues of nuance and personal preference, all three options are formally correct. In particular "engineers forum" and "translators workplace" are formally correct.

The word "forum" is your main noun. You can modify it with a possessive:

- the engineer's forum (the singular "engineer" can be understood to mean the generic engineer, not one particular engineer); or

- the engineers' forum (the forum being attributed to engineers at large).

Or you can modify the noun "forum" with a noun-modifier. Noun-modifiers are very commonly used in English:

health insurance, tax evasion, biology professor, computer virus, birth control, diet pills, etc.

The general rule, typically taught with unwarranted rigidity to grade-school students, is that noun-modifiers are usually used in the singular form, even if the reference is clearly to a plurality:

a four-star general, a five-star hotel, a seven-course dinner, etc.

However, there are noted examples:

arms control, sales division, weapons violations charges, etc.

These examples are from the following page:

http://www.link.cs.cmu.edu/link/dict/section-AN.html

As I said, I do not wish to cast a vote on a "preferred" choice or to address the specific nuances of each choice, but to specifically address the formal correctness of these choices, and in particular to correct the notion that "Translators Workplace" is incorrect.

Selected response from:

Fuad Yahya

Grading comment

Thank you very much.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

SUMMARY OF ALL EXPLANATIONS PROVIDED

5 +11

Engineers' forum

Attila Piróth

4 +4

engineers' forum

Dave Calderhead

5 +2

formally correct

Fuad Yahya

5 +1

the third one: Engineers' Forum

lafresita (X)

4 +1

Engineer's Forum / Engineers' Forum

flipendo

4 +1

engineers forum OR engineers' forum

Ken Cox

4 +1

all three are possible!!

William [Bill] Gray

The second one

Anna Maria Augustine (X)

Discussion entries: 7

Balasubramaniam L.

India

ASKER

02:50 Feb 23, 2006

Just for the records, there is a companion forum discussion on this topic, which future referers of this question should also consult for additional clarification. The url is this:

http://www.proz.com/topic/42823

Grading this is impossible, but I am doing it anyway and hope that you will understand. I thank you all for taking the time and trouble to explain the nuances of this question to me.

William [Bill] Gray

Norway

I agree with both your posts Rita, but I think that Bala probably related this under the last part of his posting area, namely "grammar/spelling/usage" :-)

15:36 Feb 20, 2006

RHELLER

United States

Proz has many mistakes which I try to ignore :-)

15:06 Feb 20, 2006

RHELLER

United States

this is the type of question that deserves to be posted in the linguistic forum IMO

15:05 Feb 20, 2006

Ken Cox

As for 'grammatical backing', it can be argued that the forum is *for* engineers rather than belonging to them, so the possessive is not necessary, but IMHO it most likely reflects a general trend to ignore (or abuse) the possessive in casual usage.

13:25 Feb 20, 2006

Ken Cox

IMO 'acceptable usage' depends on who you ask (some people and organisations would definitely not accept it). 'Accepted usage' is slightly different, and judging by google and general experiece I'd say that it is common if not accepted usage in the US.

12:23 Feb 20, 2006

Balasubramaniam L.

India

ASKER

Does "engineers forum" have a grammatical backing

12:14 Feb 20, 2006

Jack Doughty, I entirely agree with you. The reason for asking this question was just that. I had a feeling that the phrase in proZ's logo wasn't grammatically correct, but wanted to check on that. Also, this has been a question I have encontered more than once, for example, in the title of a book I was proof-reading recently, "fishermens guide to (something)". It seems so erroneous here, and I had corrected it to "fishermen's", and today I saw proz's logo, and started wondering, did I make a blunder?

Kenneth, is "engineers forum" now acceptable usage?

Answers

2 mins confidence:

engineers forum The second one

Explanation:
*

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 mins (2006-02-20 11:50:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Or you can simply say: a forum for engineers which is less complicated.

Anna Maria Augustine (X)
France
Local time: 10:14
Works in field
Native speaker of:

English,

French
PRO pts in category: 28

3 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +1

engineers forum Engineer's Forum / Engineers' Forum

Explanation:
I would go for these two alternatives. If you were to emphasize the Engineer as the generic term, I believe this is what you should use: the Engineer's Forum. Otherwise, both are fine.

flipendo
Local time: 11:14
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

Greek

4 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +11

engineers forum Engineers' forum

Explanation:
This is the straightforward solution - although you will often find the apostrophe omitted, like in ProZ - The Translators Workplace (see the top of this page).

Attila Piróth
France
Local time: 10:14
Native speaker of:

Hungarian
PRO pts in category: 4

6 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +4

engineers forum engineers' forum

Explanation:
because it is a forum for more than one engineer, hence the plural possessive

Dave Calderhead
Netherlands
Local time: 10:14
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 12

9 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +1

engineers forum the third one: Engineers' Forum

Explanation:
for sure

lafresita (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:14
Works in field
Native speaker of: Polish

10 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +1

engineers forum engineers forum OR engineers' forum

Explanation:
If you use the possessive, IMO it should be engineers' because it is for engineers collectively.
However, a google scan using 'engineers forum' and similar terms (such as 'artists forum', 'users forum', etc.) indicates the possisive and non-possessive forms are both common.

You could also call it 'engineering forum' if that suits the context.

Ken Cox
Local time: 10:14
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 47

39 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +1

engineers forum all three are possible!!

Explanation:
I apologise for adding yet another answer, but it's the only way I can get enough space to write what I wish to say.

If you are thinking of engineers as a profession ("The Engineer") then you may wish to write (especially, but not exclusively, if you are referring to their monthly journal/magazine):
THE ENGINEER'S FORUM
http://bsnldeforum.tripod.com/

If you are thinking of all engineers from an area who are coming to a conference/forum, you may write:
THE ENGINEERS' FORUM
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/forum/about.htm

If you are thinking purely generically, as with The Translators Workplace (mentioned by another answerer), you may dispense with the apostrophe altogether, because here it is a forum FOR engineers and not possessed by them, you may write:
THE ENGINEERS FORUM
http://www.asme.org/communities/EarlyCareer/Young_Engineers_...

In other words, the eventual usage will depend on the context, which we do not have here. You may choose yourself from the proffered alternatives.

Hope this helps.

William [Bill] Gray
Norway
Local time: 10:14
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 16

6 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): +2

engineers forum

formally correct

Fuad Yahya
Native speaker of:

Arabic,

English
PRO pts in category: 36

Grading comment

Thank you very much.

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