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including(,) but not limited to(,) xxx

English translation: use commas (parenthetical phrase)

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10:43 Jan 3, 2007
English to English translations [PRO]
Linguistics / punctuation
English term or phrase: including(,) but not limited to(,) xxx
are the commas needed? google returns inconclusive results, a more or less even split of opinion between the pro-commatose and the anti-commatose camp
pidzej
Poland
Local time: 14:06
English translation:use commas (parenthetical phrase)
Explanation:
Think of this as two phrases with one interrupting the other - "including XXX" is being interrupted by "but not limited to". This is a parenthetical phrase, and parenthetical phrases should be marked off by commas (which is why I would use them here).

"The comma has several uses in English grammar, all related to marking-off separate elements within a sentence:

2. Parenthetical phrases: The parenthetical phrase has an important, often misunderstood, use. It is often used for thought interruptions. Information that is unnecessary to the meaning of the sentence is commonly set off and enclosed by commas. If the information is necessary, no commas should be used...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_(punctuation)

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Note added at 49 mins (2007-01-03 11:33:05 GMT)
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And for "unnecessary", read "unnecessary to the sentence" - if you took out "but not limited to", the sentence would still be grammatically correct and have its *core* meaning left intact (the "but not limited to" adds extra information).

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Note added at 53 mins (2007-01-03 11:36:38 GMT)
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But you haven't given a sentence, so how do we know commas are necessary before and after this bit? There might be other ways of avoiding commas, e.g. using dashes or brackets around the phrase in question, but that may not be necessary.

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Note added at 4 hrs (2007-01-03 15:20:45 GMT)
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I see... I would still keep the commas in "including, but not limited to, XXX", but to cut down on commas in the sentence I would consider putting "as amended from time to time" in brackets rather than commas.

e.g.

"3.01 Amount of Accrued Benefit. (a) An Officer Participant's Accrued Benefit shall be a monthly retirement benefit equal to an amount calculated pursuant to Section 4.01 (as amended from time to time), or any successor provision thereto, of the Salaried Pension Plan with the following modifications..."
http://contracts.onecle.com/albertsons/executive.pension2.19...

Selected response from:

Peter Shortall
Local time: 13:06
Grading comment
reluctantly accepted on formal grounds ;-)
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
5 +2yeszax
3 +3use commas (parenthetical phrase)
Peter Shortall
5 +1No, absolutely notAnna Maria Augustine at proZ.com


Discussion entries: 3





  

Answers


9 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +2
yes


Explanation:
needed

zax
Local time: 09:06
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in ArabicArabic, Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  anne wagner-findeisen
4 hrs
  -> Thanks, anne

agree  Sophia Finos
9 hrs
  -> Thanks, Sophia
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20 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
No, absolutely not


Explanation:
Including but not limited to..

We don't use that many commas in English and you haven't sent any context anyway!

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Note added at 30 mins (2007-01-03 11:13:44 GMT)
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A full sentence?

Anna Maria Augustine at proZ.com
France
Local time: 14:06
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 28
Notes to answerer
Asker: I am the first to cry out for more context but frankly, what context would help in this instance?


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Deborah Workman: I agree -- commas aren't necessary and context wouldn't help. Commas are common, though; they're old-style but not wrong. The only thing to avoid is a comma or space without a mate!
13 hrs
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29 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +3
use commas (parenthetical phrase)


Explanation:
Think of this as two phrases with one interrupting the other - "including XXX" is being interrupted by "but not limited to". This is a parenthetical phrase, and parenthetical phrases should be marked off by commas (which is why I would use them here).

"The comma has several uses in English grammar, all related to marking-off separate elements within a sentence:

2. Parenthetical phrases: The parenthetical phrase has an important, often misunderstood, use. It is often used for thought interruptions. Information that is unnecessary to the meaning of the sentence is commonly set off and enclosed by commas. If the information is necessary, no commas should be used...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_(punctuation)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 49 mins (2007-01-03 11:33:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

And for "unnecessary", read "unnecessary to the sentence" - if you took out "but not limited to", the sentence would still be grammatically correct and have its *core* meaning left intact (the "but not limited to" adds extra information).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 53 mins (2007-01-03 11:36:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

But you haven't given a sentence, so how do we know commas are necessary before and after this bit? There might be other ways of avoiding commas, e.g. using dashes or brackets around the phrase in question, but that may not be necessary.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2007-01-03 15:20:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I see... I would still keep the commas in "including, but not limited to, XXX", but to cut down on commas in the sentence I would consider putting "as amended from time to time" in brackets rather than commas.

e.g.

"3.01 Amount of Accrued Benefit. (a) An Officer Participant's Accrued Benefit shall be a monthly retirement benefit equal to an amount calculated pursuant to Section 4.01 (as amended from time to time), or any successor provision thereto, of the Salaried Pension Plan with the following modifications..."
http://contracts.onecle.com/albertsons/executive.pension2.19...



Peter Shortall
Local time: 13:06
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8
Grading comment
reluctantly accepted on formal grounds ;-)
Notes to answerer
Asker: fine, but you already need a comma before including and after xxx, which makes the sentence a bit overcommaed and not at all easier to read for all the punctuation, doesn't it?

Asker: ... goods may not be exported to countries included in an enclosed list, as amended from time to time, including, but not limited to, xxx (being some names of countries). Will that do?


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Inge Dijkstra: with Peter; and also with his note about giving us a sentence; in view of your last note, there obviously seems to be a full sentence which could be provided, doesn't it?
47 mins

agree  cmwilliams: I would tend to use commas, but it really depends on the rest of the sentence. It would definitely help to have the full sentence.
2 hrs

agree  Rachel Fell: I don't like overuse of commas either, but probably they are required here for clarity, esp. if in any sort of legal context
8 hrs
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Changes made by editors
Jan 3, 2007 - Changes made by Marek Daroszewski (MrMarDar):
Language pairPolish » English


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