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make an image/ take an image

English translation: making images includes downloading images

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15:32 Sep 3, 2008
English to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Linguistics
English term or phrase: make an image/ take an image
Sorry, this isn't a job-related query. Just something I was just reading on the BBC website which puzzled me a bit.

So a vicar has admitted possessing indecent images of children. The sentence goes:

"He admitted 12 charges of making indecent images of children, four of taking indecent images and five of possessing images on his computer. "

What on earth is the difference between "make an image" and "take and image"??

Thanks!
Nesrin
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:57
English translation:making images includes downloading images
Explanation:
and that's what it probably most often means, judging from the ghits, while 'taking images' presumably means photography.

see e.g.

According to The Home Office in Britain the law is the following:

Section 160 of The Criminal Justice Act of 1988 made the simple possession of indecent photographs of children an offence. This is a Serious Arrestable Offence carrying a maximum sentence of 5 years imprisonment. Note: The term "make" includes downloading images from the Internet and storing or printing them out. R v Bowden (J) 1999.

This does not mean that anyone that accidentally receives Child Pornography e-mailed to them and does not download it, copy or print, but deletes immediately will get a knock on their door.
http://www.wiredsafety.org/resources/editorial/0002.html
Selected response from:

Ken Cox
Local time: 12:57
Grading comment
Sorry, Ken, obviously you had the most accurate answer, with references and all, all along!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
5 +3drawings / photos
Sheila Wilson
4 +2making images includes downloading imagesKen Cox
4 +2make/take
Robin Levey
5subtle matter of preference/meaning
John Alphonse
Summary of reference entries provided
xxxd_vachliot

Discussion entries: 5





  

Answers


10 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +3
drawings / photos


Explanation:
It's rather odd wording, but criminal charge wording has to be legalese and is often a bit odd.

Making an image would be creating it with your own hands (drawing, sketching, painting, sculpting, ...)

Taking an image would need a piece of kit (still camera, video camera, ...)

Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 11:57
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 31

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Taña Dalglish: You phrasing is perfect .. better than what I was thinking (LOL!). Good luck.
4 mins

agree  Cagdas Karatas
7 mins

agree  xxxd_vachliot
42 mins
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18 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
subtle matter of preference/meaning


Explanation:
Good question! From my experience as photographer and former student of photography, I recall my art photography teacher using the word "making" to emphasize that you are calling upon the process of creation combined with a specific intent when composing and exposing an image, whereas "taking" almost has a connotation of stealing or randomness. This is perhaps only a subtlety shared in the art world, and in general there is really no difference between the two terms, and nothing is implied as extreme as one meaning you are the creator of the photo versus simply grabbing someone else's photograph (the latter of which would come under "possessing" - being in the possession of). "Take a picture," is the most common and accepted usage, but if you stop and think about the implications, "making" a photo (or "making an image" as this teacher specified) is probably a more accurate rendition of the process. But again, almost everyone in layman's terms uses "take". I wonder, in fact, about the socio-cultural implications of this... By the looks of the world we probably could use a little less taking and a lot more making!! I think the impact of our words is grossly underestimated on what manifests as "reality"...

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Note added at 23 mins (2008-09-03 15:55:51 GMT)
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I would just like to note that in both instances here, we are referring to the photographic process and not to drawing or painting or any other medium! Thanks!

John Alphonse
United States
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Brie Vernier: That's all well and good, John, but it obviously doesn't fit the given context
7 mins
  -> Ok! Ok! I see your point. I'll remain with the philosophical aspect myself as the law on this is completely whacked anyhow (and this is not to imply that child pornography is ok!). Thanks for your comment.
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24 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
making images includes downloading images


Explanation:
and that's what it probably most often means, judging from the ghits, while 'taking images' presumably means photography.

see e.g.

According to The Home Office in Britain the law is the following:

Section 160 of The Criminal Justice Act of 1988 made the simple possession of indecent photographs of children an offence. This is a Serious Arrestable Offence carrying a maximum sentence of 5 years imprisonment. Note: The term "make" includes downloading images from the Internet and storing or printing them out. R v Bowden (J) 1999.

This does not mean that anyone that accidentally receives Child Pornography e-mailed to them and does not download it, copy or print, but deletes immediately will get a knock on their door.
http://www.wiredsafety.org/resources/editorial/0002.html

Ken Cox
Local time: 12:57
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 47
Grading comment
Sorry, Ken, obviously you had the most accurate answer, with references and all, all along!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Brie Vernier: makes sense
4 mins

neutral  John Alphonse: British law is apparently classically flawed! "Lol!" It's just that I disagree with what they constitute as the definition of "make". And why the five charges for possession & not 17 for "making" when their definition of "downloading" is under Sec. 160?
9 mins
  -> in what way flawed?

agree  Madeleine MacRae Klintebo: With you on the make/take issue, but any idea about the difference between "make" (download and store) and "possess on his computer"? True, he could have received images on a CD, but that's unnecessary precision in my view. But then I'm not a lawyer...
1 hr
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
make/take


Explanation:
I saw that article, too, and I read it as meaning that he had 'made' images in the sense of printing them in some way (i.e. he converted virtual images to physical ones), and that he had 'taken' images in the conventional sense used in photography, i.e. that he 'pointed the camera and pushed the button'.

Robin Levey
Chile
Local time: 07:57
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 23

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Demi Ebrite: I think he made lurid images using photoshop, perhaps printing them off, actually took some photos personally with a camera, and kept some stored in his PC ~
1 hr

agree  John Alphonse: I agree but Ken's law defines making as copying a file to your HD as "making" (???)
2 hrs
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Reference comments


58 mins peer agreement (net): +1
Reference

Reference information:
The Cleveland Plain Dealer (reg. req.) reports a disturbing story regarding a lawyer who serves as a defense expert in child porn cases (Ex-prosecutor now toppling porn cases). The defense expert, a former prosecutor,

has developed a computerized courtroom exhibit that he uses to demonstrate how, with a $650 PhotoShop software program, adults can be digitally morphed into appearing as if they are children, and vice versa.

The reason this is relevant is because the Ohio law requires that:
a prosecutor must prove that a digital portrait of suspected child pornography is, in fact, a picture of a child. To meet that requirement, the image must be authenticated as a child and not an adult digitally enhanced to look like a child. [...]

Well, that's the freakin' point isn't it? That is, people can make images that appear to be children engaged in sexual acts, but aren't children. How can you conclusively demonstrate the point in court without showing some of those images and how they may be made?'

*****

Proof of the victim’s identity can become an issue for us. Despite Congress’ best efforts to make images of child pornography not involving a real child (such as morphed child pornography images) illegal, there’s at least one Circuit in the U.S., the ninth Circuit where California resides, that has said that for an image to be considered illegal it must involve a real child. Therefore, we still, in many cases, must prove that a real person was involved. Again this refers strictly to a child pornography case.


    Reference: http://importance.corante.com/archives/004616.html
    Reference: http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/rs/rep-rap/2001/op01_20-po01...
xxxd_vachliot
Greece
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in GreekGreek

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  Demi Ebrite: That's an inside view of US law in action for you! How unfortunate if the morphed subjects in the images have children that look like their patrents! It would seem that the 'intent' of the viewer should be at issue . . .
1 hr
  -> Yes, the whole thing is grim.
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