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the + Italian names

English translation: compromise suggestion

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00:40 Feb 16, 2005
English to English translations [PRO]
Linguistics
English term or phrase: the + Italian names
"the event was organised in cooperation with THE Fondazione Tizio" or "the event was organised in cooperation with Fondazione Tizio"?
Do I have to use the article when making reference to Italian names (eg. names of foundations, associations, banks...)in English?
TIA
deud
English translation:compromise suggestion
Explanation:
My instinct tells me you should use "the", because it sounds more natural to my (British English) ears. However, I can't find any authoritative reference. And I wonder whether I'm influenced by the italian word sounding so much like foundation. I can't think which I would prefer if it was a string of letters that made no sense to me (obviously not Italian) bit what would I think if it was, say "brouslivopi Tizio", where I've got no handle?

I reckon I'd find out what sort of organisation the brouslivopi was, and then use that in English, with brouslivopi Tizio as a qualifier - so, "with the brouslivopi Tizio foundation/charity/bank" whatever. I suggest you do the same here.
Selected response from:

Charlie Bavington
Local time: 03:23
Grading comment
I've been laughing for half an hour...after many detailed explanations,out of the blue you provided a striking and practical solution which can be applied in any case. Well, thank you.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
5 +5Yep. You are right
Tsogt Gombosuren
5 +2No "The".............not necessaryAnna Maria Augustine at proZ.com
4 +1see comment
Rafal Piotrowski
3 -1compromise suggestionCharlie Bavington


Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


14 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
the + italian names
see comment


Explanation:
AFAIK, one wouldn't normally attach an article before given names of foundations when they are of foreign origin, even though it might be the case in the source language ("La Fondazione... etc."). On the contrary, this is not the case with mountains; compare: "Mount Everest", but "the Matternhorn" ("Der Matternhorn"), or cities (Den Haag - the Hague).

Hope it helps :-)

Rafal Piotrowski
Poland
Local time: 04:23
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Polish
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Alvaro Bengoa Jalabert: You don´t need to say "the"
3 hrs
  -> Thx :-)
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11 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +5
the + italian names
Yep. You are right


Explanation:
"The" should be used before the Italian names.
===============================================
NATO Speech: Address to the Konrad Adenauer Stiftung
... Thus I am glad to see the Konrad Adenauer Stiftung prove by this meeting that
it too is responding to the challenge. ...
www.nato.int/docu/speech/1989/s890707a_e.htm - 24k

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 mins (2005-02-16 00:53:46 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Hanns-Seidel-Stiftung: „Restarting the Middle East Peace Process ...
... the Brussels Office of the Hanns-Seidel-Stiftung, the International Crisis
Group Brussels and the European Policy Centre invite you to a one-day ...
www.hss.de/5895.shtml - 16k

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 mins (2005-02-16 00:54:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Fondazione Memmo
... was completely restored and redecorated by the Fondazione Memmo. ... In 1993
the activity of the Fondazione Memmo continued housing 22 famous paintings ...
www.1stmuse.com/memmo/ - 11k - Âýáèéí Cache - Èæèë õóóäàñíóóä

Fondazione Europea Margherita
... The proceeds will entirely be used for the activities of the Fondazione Europea
... The Fondazione Europea Margherita organizes a biennial prize for an ...
www.fondazionemargherita.org/eng/ - 8k - Âýáèéí Cache - Èæèë õóóäàñíóóä

Casa Buonarroti - Library
... The history of the book patrimony of the Fondazione Casa Buonarroti is both
long and complex. When telling the vicissitudes of a library that was born ...
www.casabuonarroti.it/english/librery.htm - 9k


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Note added at 17 mins (2005-02-16 00:58:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Another way is to translate \"fondazione\" as \"fund/foundation\" and use \"the\" article, i.e. \"The Tizio Foundation\"

Tsogt Gombosuren
Canada
Local time: 20:23
Native speaker of: Native in MongolianMongolian

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  RHELLER: the is required because it is THE foundation- if it were just a person's name, it would not be required
10 mins
  -> Thanks a lot, Rita! :-)

neutral  Anna Maria Augustine at proZ.com: You have given 3 examples using "of" and not any using "with"???It's a grammatical point.
28 mins
  -> 631 Google hits for the exact phrase "with the Fondazione". Check http://www.google.mn/search?hl=mn&q="with the Fondazione"

agree  Will Matter: You are correct. English requires the use of "the" here, at least for this example.
37 mins
  -> Thanks a lot, willmatter! :-)

agree  LisaR
38 mins
  -> Thanks a lot, Lisa! :-)

agree  JCEC
1 hr
  -> Thanks a lot, JCEC! :-)

agree  Ghyslaine LE NAGARD
4 hrs
  -> Thanks a lot, NewCal! :-)
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13 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +2
the + italian names
No "The".............not necessary


Explanation:
It is not necessary to add the "The" as this would not be grammatically correct.

All best....

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 29 mins (2005-02-16 01:10:34 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here is some insight into the question. It has both English and Italian so it should help.
http://www.segretariatosociale.rai.it/INGLESE/atelier/press_...

Anna Maria Augustine at proZ.com
France
Local time: 04:23
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 28

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  RHELLER: sorry Anna but Foundation requires "the" before it - ( i.e. organized with the United Nations); not referring to Italian, referring to English only
10 mins
  -> But Rita, foundation is not an Italian word and is not being translated from Italian to English in the text????

agree  Ken Cox: There might be some cases where you should use 'the', but in compound proper names such as this you shouldn't, since otherwise you suggest that 'Tizio' is a noun. The situation is similar in English: you wouldn't say 'the Citibank' or 'the General Motors'
10 mins
  -> Thanks Kenneth. Being half Italian I thought surely I must be right.

agree  Silvina Jover-Cirillo: Nice explanation, Kenneth!
48 mins
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): -1
the + italian names
compromise suggestion


Explanation:
My instinct tells me you should use "the", because it sounds more natural to my (British English) ears. However, I can't find any authoritative reference. And I wonder whether I'm influenced by the italian word sounding so much like foundation. I can't think which I would prefer if it was a string of letters that made no sense to me (obviously not Italian) bit what would I think if it was, say "brouslivopi Tizio", where I've got no handle?

I reckon I'd find out what sort of organisation the brouslivopi was, and then use that in English, with brouslivopi Tizio as a qualifier - so, "with the brouslivopi Tizio foundation/charity/bank" whatever. I suggest you do the same here.

Charlie Bavington
Local time: 03:23
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 28
Grading comment
I've been laughing for half an hour...after many detailed explanations,out of the blue you provided a striking and practical solution which can be applied in any case. Well, thank you.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Tsogt Gombosuren: Konrad-Adenauer Stiftung Foundation??? Foundation Foundation???
1 hr
  -> I like to think I'm not an idiot, but until just now I had no idea that Stiftung = Foundation, so to me it's not repetitive. Stiftung is nonsense to me and the majority of readers. THAT, my friend, is WHY we have translators :-) !!
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