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The Eastern's view of the Western

English translation: The Easterners' view of the Westerners

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
English term or phrase:The Eastern's view of the Western
English translation:The Easterners' view of the Westerners
Entered by: Nesrin
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13:17 Feb 19, 2005
English to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Linguistics
English term or phrase: The Eastern's view of the Western
This is one of the headings in an essay about a novel. The writer is analysing the view which the oriental characters in the novel hold of certain European characters.
How can you best express this?
Does "The Eastern's view of the Western" sound right, or is "Western" too reminiscent of Western movies?
"The East's view of the West" is too general.
"The Eastern characters' view of Western characters" is too much of a mouthful.
Any suggestions?
Nesrin
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:17
The Easterners' view of the Westerners
Explanation:
I'm not a native speaker, but that's what I would use.
Selected response from:

Sandra Schlatter
Local time: 06:17
Grading comment
Thanks Sandra and everyone else!! Still can't forgive myself for having been on the verge of committing that grammatical error, but I DID have a feeling that it sounded odd!!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
4 +5See comment below... [Not for grading!]
Tony M
3 +5The Easterners' view of the WesternersSandra Schlatter
4 +3How the eastern characters see their western counterparts (in the novel)
James Calder
5 +2musings: on the Orient and OrientalsMarcus Malabad
3 +4the Easterner's view of the West
NancyLynn
5 +1Westerner
Alaa Zeineldine
4 -1The Eastern's View of the Western World
Vicky Papaprodromou
4 -1The Eastern's view of the Western
Clauwolf


Discussion entries: 3





  

Answers


2 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
the eastern's view of the western
The Eastern's view of the Western


Explanation:
:) Sounds good

Clauwolf
Local time: 02:17
Native speaker of: Native in PortuguesePortuguese
PRO pts in category: 12

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Tony M: No, they are both wrong parts of speech for the intended meaning, and so Western here is bound to sound like the movie genre...
2 mins
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3 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +5
The Easterners' view of the Westerners


Explanation:
I'm not a native speaker, but that's what I would use.

Sandra Schlatter
Local time: 06:17
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
Thanks Sandra and everyone else!! Still can't forgive myself for having been on the verge of committing that grammatical error, but I DID have a feeling that it sounded odd!!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Tony M: I would agree, except for that redundant second 'the' if this is a collective use meaning 'Westerners in general', and not any particular subset of them // Asker, in that case Sandra's OK, if this is SPECIFIC characters, you're fine
18 mins

agree  Kirill Semenov: I would certainly go with "Westerners". + Also, I found Dusty's disagree way too harsh... Even _if_ there is a mistake in an article it doesn't deserve that agressive response + From the other hand, seems that it's Dusty style to suppress other answers..
19 mins

agree  James Calder: I agree with you but not with Dusty. I would use "the" before westerners because you're referring to specific western characters in a novel not to westerners in general. And you got the apostrophe in the right place.
22 mins

agree  Vicky Papaprodromou
28 mins

agree  Lawyer-Linguist: Dusty is right on the use of the second defining "the"//now that you've clarified it is the novel's characters, it's fine - but I'd still opt in this case for James's suggestion - makes far more sense in a literature essay and avoids the whole controversy
47 mins
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4 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
the eastern's view of the western
The Eastern's View of the Western World


Explanation:
Hi Nasrin. I would go for this title to exclude any hint of Western Movies. :-)

Vicky Papaprodromou
Greece
Local time: 08:17
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in GreekGreek
PRO pts in category: 12

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Tony M: Sorry, Vicky, but still stuck in the same adj / noun trap...
18 mins
  -> Hi Dusty. Right you are about the same adjective trap.
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3 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +4
the eastern's view of the western
the Easterner's view of the West


Explanation:
or perhaps the Oriental's view of the West

the West is the location; the Western is 'from the West', so I'd stay away from Western. As you say, too John Wayne and Country & Western ;-)

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Note added at 5 mins (2005-02-19 13:23:00 GMT)
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Maybe even the Oriental\'s view of the Occident, or of Europe

NancyLynn
Canada
Local time: 01:17
Works in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 26

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Tony M: I think this solution is both succinct and neat, and avoids that grammatical problem of 'Eastern' being an adjective and not a noun! // with the caveat that I too misread the question ;-(
3 mins
  -> precisely, thanks Dusty!

agree  Tanja Kaether
14 mins
  -> thanks Tanja

agree  xxxcmwilliams: This is grammatically correct, but having looked at the question again, I don't think 'the West' conveys the intended meaning since it refers to the characters.
23 mins
  -> thanks cm

agree  Vicky Papaprodromou
29 mins

neutral  James Calder: Sorry to be picky, Nancy but your apostrophe is in the wrong place and the easterners are opining about their western counterparts in the novel, not the "west" in general - at least that's how I read the question. I would say "westerners" instead.
30 mins

neutral  Lawyer-Linguist: have to agree with James here on both points
48 mins
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +2
the eastern's view of the western
musings: on the Orient and Orientals


Explanation:
I'd like to weigh in on the discussion but touching only on the semantic value of the word "Oriental" to mean persons from Asia or "
the Orient".

Not that I'm an advocate of PC language but, I think, judging from media and literary trends that probably started in the 80s, saying "Oriental" to describe an Asian person (especially East Asia) no longer has "active currency" (I'm trying to avoid saying "no longer acceptable because it's not politically correct"). A similar trend could be observed with the words "negro/black/African American".

To my (Oriental) ears, the word simply sounds outdated, akin to saying "Persian" when trying to describe people from Iran (with all the geopolitical/colonial connotations that word brings). When I hear people say it (and they're usually non-Asian people who were born earlier than the 60s), I envision a Shangri-la-like attitude towards the object: "look, dearie, curious people with weird looks and odd food. How quaint!"

It might also be a word that dropped off the vogue as affordable mass travel from West to East started (in the 70s?). Westerners, instead of saying the all-embracing word "Oriental", became familiar with internal differences (Chinese-Japanese anyone?) and started saying "this is a Chinese vase" instead of "We had Oriental food yesterday".

But come to think of it, you still see shop signs everywhere in the US: "Oriental rugs sold here". Hmmm, curious that...

Delving deeper into the word's modern meaning also reveals that it can hardly be used to describe all people who come from the Asian continent. Can you call a Pakistani or an Iraqi Oriental?

The point is this: if you want to delineate the East/West tandem, using "Orient" brings in added political undertones which the text above - meager though the context - probably does not justify.

"The eastern's view of the western", as people already pointed out, is ungrammatical and awkward. I would use "Easterner-Westerner" as Dusty suggest above.

It's a yin-yang world, innit?

Marcus Malabad
Canada
Local time: 07:17
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in TagalogTagalog

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Tony M: Long time no hear Marcus! Thank you for so beautifully making all the points to which I was trying to allude. Oriental rugs / food specifically capitalize on the historical/cultural background, don't you think?
9 mins
  -> Merci, monsieur. I now rarely pop up in Kudoz. I was especially inspired this morning. Figured there was a lot to write about in this subject as you already mention.

agree  James Calder: Quite agree, Marcus.
17 mins
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40 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +3
the eastern's view of the western
How the eastern characters see their western counterparts (in the novel)


Explanation:
Just thought I'd add my suggestion, for what it's worth. As I understand it Nesrin's question refers specifically to eastern and western (European) characters in the novel itself and not to western people in general or the "west". All comments welcome.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 11 mins (2005-02-19 14:28:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Nesrin,

Re the second \"the\":

I would definitely put a second \"the\" if it specifically refers to characters in the novel. It\'s called the definite article and here there is a need for definition.

HTH

James



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 41 mins (2005-02-19 14:58:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Note for Dusty,

I\'m a fast learner!

Regards

James

James Calder
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:17
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Lawyer-Linguist: like it - especially since it's an essay written about a novel// see or view
9 mins
  -> Thanks Debbie

agree  Tony M: Yes, thanks a lot for that clarification, James! /// Your command of English is truly amazing in one so young ;-)))))
55 mins
  -> Thank you, Dusty.

agree  Marcus Malabad: yep, and why not just "Asian (characters)" being juxtaposed to their Western counterparts? Politically neutral, all-encompassing "Asian" is modern, current and semantically adequate. Nuf said.
20 hrs
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10 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +5
the eastern's view of the western
See comment below... [Not for grading!]


Explanation:
Just chipping in to clarify one key point that it seems no-one has actually mentioned outright.

Nesrin, whatever formula you choose, IMO you CANNOT ever use Eastern/Western, simply because these are adjectives, and can't stand alone to mean 'a person from the East / West'

So whatever you do, you need to work in the noun form Easterner / Westerner, or use a different word like Nancy's suggestion with Oriental [note that here the adjective DOES also work as the noun for 'a person from the Orient'!]

IMO, none of the answers retaining either or both of your original Eastern / Western terms (used as nouns) can be regarded as correct English.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs 52 mins (2005-02-20 01:09:29 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Alaa has raised a most interesting point about the use of adjectives as nouns. I was always taught that if the adjective was abstract, and referring to a group collectively, it was OK: so \'the meek shall inheret the Earth\' is fine.

A \'western\' is just a shortening of a \'western film\', so again, the adjective is describing a noun that is taken as read.

The \'Embracing the Beloved\' example is interesting --- but \'beloved is one of those few adjectives (just like Oriental) that can also be a noun; certain others simply cannot! Dixit Oxford...

Tony M
France
Local time: 07:17
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 156

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  NancyLynn: your last point, particularly, says it all.
3 mins
  -> Thanks a lot, Nancy! ;-))

agree  Lawyer-Linguist: and Kirill - please the options are prestated as neutral and disagree - Dusty states his point clearly and concisely on language issues alone//now that it's clarified it's the specific characters true - but still your comments are linguistic, not personal
32 mins
  -> Many thanks, Debbie! Your sensible support is appreciated. But I ought to have read the question more thoroughly too...

agree  James Calder: Agree here, but I don't agree with you about "the" before "westerners". BTW, your comments on this answer are fine. Absolutely nothing wrong with disagreeing with each other - life would be boring if we didn't.
50 mins
  -> Many thanks, James! I know my bluntness in small space sometimes surprises, but I think most react like you! Yes, your point about 'the' is of course quite right --- I just didn't rre-ead the question carefully enough when I came to answer...

agree  Alaa Zeineldine: Good explanation on the last note Dusty. These discussions are a good example of how KudoZ can be enriching for askers and answerers alike.
13 hrs
  -> Thanks, Alaa! I quite agree, that's why I get so much out of KudoZ, it's just great! No need for anyone to let their inferiority complexes show HERE :-))

agree  Marcus Malabad: yes, adjectives used as nouns refer to a specific quality shared by a group (the pleasant) or a specific human characteristic shared by a group of people (the wise). Here, however, eastern/western are not human qualities; therefore, the paradigm fails
20 hrs
  -> Thanks, Marcus! As ever, your clear and succinct explanation is extremely helpful
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2 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
the eastern's view of the western
Westerner


Explanation:
I think "Westerner" is the word you need.

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Note added at 12 mins (2005-02-19 13:29:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

You might also consider changing the whole title to: \"The Oriental\'s View of the Westerner\". Eastern is an adjective that does not seem to read very well in this title.

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Note added at 8 hrs 5 mins (2005-02-19 21:22:42 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Note motivated by comments from Dusty and Kirill:

This note may provide further help in coming up with a better title.

Easterner: In the US, \"Easterners\" sometimes refers to people from the East Coast, while it has become common because of prevalence in the news media to use Westerner for people coming from anywhere in the West.

Oriental: Is it pejorative? First, here is a good article about the subject: http://www.etherzone.com/2002/powell082102.shtml. Not only is this debatable, but it also depends upon the subject. I believe that not every word that it pejorative is pejorative all the time. For example, it would be insensitive today to say that a 30% of a company\'s employees are Negroes, but it is fine to write an essay called \"Negro Leaders\" or set up the Negro League Baseball (website: http://www.negroleaguebaseball.com ). Nesrin\'s title falls in the latter category. One could even argue that there may be a negative undertone to \"Westerner\" in this title, but it is obviously an article (about a book) about one ethnicity\'s view of another, an unsustainable undertaking if too much deference is given to PC.

Adjectives: While I agree that using the adjectives Eastern and Western sounded alien in this particular title, it is not always a crime. I think that too much attention was given to the grammatical argument for not using them. We agree on the result, but not for the same reason. Grammar rules are malleable when it comes to titles, banners, mottos, and many other things. For example, you could rent a spaghetti western from Blockbuster Video, read \"Embracing the Beloved\" by Levine, and I can\'t wait to see the meek inherit the Earth.

For this particular question, we agree that the adjectives do not read well. In fact, the title still seems a little clumsy in my view.


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Note added at 8 hrs 57 mins (2005-02-19 22:14:48 GMT) Post-grading
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Here\'s the URL about \"oriental\" once again: http://www.etherzone.com/2002/powell082102.shtml

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Note added at 21 hrs 22 mins (2005-02-20 10:39:47 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Note 2. for Marcus:
Nesrin referred to the characters as Oriental, so I assumed she meant from the Far East. This may be politically loaded, but if the article will be loaded, why not the title? It sounds like a tricky subject, but I could extrapolating too much.

As fo wether I call myself Oriental, unfortunately not. I fall into the strange band that is the Orient but whose inhabitants are not Oriental, they are Middle-Eastern, Arab, North African. Do I mind being called Oriental? Not at all.

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Note added at 21 hrs 23 mins (2005-02-20 10:40:23 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry for the typos.

Alaa Zeineldine
Egypt
Local time: 07:17
Native speaker of: Native in ArabicArabic, Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 11

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Tony M: I would agree with your last point, except that I thought 'Oriental' [noun] was regarded as being rather pejorative in these PC days, isn't it?
22 mins
  -> Thank you Dusty, I always like to get you feedback. Please read the note I added above.

agree  Kirill Semenov: Westerners. exactly. But `Easterners' is equally good
35 mins
  -> Thanks Kirill. Please read my note above.

neutral  Marcus Malabad: Alaa, jsut not "Oriental" please; while not exactly pejorative, it's such a politically loaded word that has superfluous subconnotations. Would you call yourself "Oriental", for example, since you could fall under the eastern part being juxtaposed?
20 hrs
  -> Hello Marcus, good to see you when you surface for air! See Note 2. above.
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