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fold calculation

English translation: ten times lower

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09:33 Apr 2, 2004
English to English translations [PRO]
Marketing - Mathematics & Statistics
English term or phrase: fold calculation
¡°resulted in production costs that are ten (10) fold lower than those of experienced producers¡±. I hold that if ¡°those of experienced producers¡± is A and ¡°production costs¡± is B, it means B=A-10B, i.e., B=A¡Â11. But some guys here said it mans B=%10 of A. Tell me the true answer native English speaking folks here. Thank you!
Jianming Sun
Local time: 17:02
English translation:ten times lower
Explanation:
To me this simply means that A = B / 10, i.e. The experienced producers' costs are 10 times higher than those of ¡°

Singapore budget deficit to worsen 10-fold; lower growth forecast
Singapore budget deficit to worsen 10-fold; lower growth forecast.
Agence France Presse February 28, 2003 SINGAPORE SINGAPORE said ...
www.singapore-window.org/sw03/030228af.htm

Bt Corn: Less Insect Damage, Lower Mycotoxin Levels, Healthier ...
... suspected higher mycotoxin levels may follow increased insect damage, but ARS entomologist
Patrick F. Dowd found fumonisin levels 30- to 40-fold lower in Bt ...
www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2000/000426.htm



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Note added at 4 hrs 7 mins (2004-04-02 13:41:41 GMT)
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I may add that this is the also the dictionary definition (taken from merriam-webster online dictionary) :

Main Entry: -fold
Pronunciation: \"fOld, \'fOld
Function: suffix
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English -feald; akin to Old High German -falt -fold, Latin -plex, -plus, Old English fealdan
1 : multiplied by (a specified number) : times -- in adjectives <a sixfold increase> and adverbs <repay you tenfold>
2 : having (so many) parts <threefold aspect of the problem>

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Note added at 4 hrs 28 mins (2004-04-02 14:02:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Dusty pointed out that I got it the wrong way round.

It is in fact B = A / 10. But the explanation is the same : the experienced producers\' costs are 10 times higher than those of ¡°

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 9 hrs 55 mins (2004-04-04 19:29:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Let\'s replace \"fold\" by \"times\" in the original sentence, as per the dictionary definition :

\"¡°resulted in production costs that are ten times lower than those of experienced producers¡±. \"

Let\'s now change the two clauses round, but keep the same meaning :
\"¡± resulted in production costs that are ten times higher than those of ¡°\"

therefore B = A / 10.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 12 hrs 57 mins (2004-04-04 22:31:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Following on from this, I think I now understand where the confusion lies.
In English, saying \"mountain A is three times higher than mountain B\" is equivalent to saying \"mountain A is three times the size of mountain B\", i.e. where A\' is height of mountain A, and B\' is height of mountain B, A\' = 3B\'
To express A\' = B\' + 3B\', I think you would have to say \"mountain A is three times higher again than mountain B\".

\"than\" is merely a word that introduces the comparison of a difference between two people, things or events. The difference can be qualified, e.g. \"higher\" \"lower\" \"bigger\" \"thinner\" \"more expensive\" \"less comfortable\", and you can also quantify the comparison: \"two more\" \"three less\" \"twice higher\" \"ten times lower\".

In your example \"He has two apples less than I have\", you are comparing how many apples there are (i.e. the apples themselves), but in \"mountain A is three times higher than mountain B\", you are comparing the height of the mountains (i.e. one property of the mountains)

Hope this helps.
Selected response from:

Lucie Brione
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:02
Grading comment
Thank you all! So in future I will avoid use this usage,just using " A is x times as much as B instead, and when I meet this usage in reading I know its meaning. Again, thank you all!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
4 +11ten times lower
Lucie Brione
4 +2comment
DGK T-I


Discussion entries: 6





  

Answers


8 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +11
ten times lower


Explanation:
To me this simply means that A = B / 10, i.e. The experienced producers' costs are 10 times higher than those of ¡°

Singapore budget deficit to worsen 10-fold; lower growth forecast
Singapore budget deficit to worsen 10-fold; lower growth forecast.
Agence France Presse February 28, 2003 SINGAPORE SINGAPORE said ...
www.singapore-window.org/sw03/030228af.htm

Bt Corn: Less Insect Damage, Lower Mycotoxin Levels, Healthier ...
... suspected higher mycotoxin levels may follow increased insect damage, but ARS entomologist
Patrick F. Dowd found fumonisin levels 30- to 40-fold lower in Bt ...
www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2000/000426.htm



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs 7 mins (2004-04-02 13:41:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I may add that this is the also the dictionary definition (taken from merriam-webster online dictionary) :

Main Entry: -fold
Pronunciation: \"fOld, \'fOld
Function: suffix
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English -feald; akin to Old High German -falt -fold, Latin -plex, -plus, Old English fealdan
1 : multiplied by (a specified number) : times -- in adjectives <a sixfold increase> and adverbs <repay you tenfold>
2 : having (so many) parts <threefold aspect of the problem>

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs 28 mins (2004-04-02 14:02:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Dusty pointed out that I got it the wrong way round.

It is in fact B = A / 10. But the explanation is the same : the experienced producers\' costs are 10 times higher than those of ¡°

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 9 hrs 55 mins (2004-04-04 19:29:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Let\'s replace \"fold\" by \"times\" in the original sentence, as per the dictionary definition :

\"¡°resulted in production costs that are ten times lower than those of experienced producers¡±. \"

Let\'s now change the two clauses round, but keep the same meaning :
\"¡± resulted in production costs that are ten times higher than those of ¡°\"

therefore B = A / 10.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 12 hrs 57 mins (2004-04-04 22:31:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Following on from this, I think I now understand where the confusion lies.
In English, saying \"mountain A is three times higher than mountain B\" is equivalent to saying \"mountain A is three times the size of mountain B\", i.e. where A\' is height of mountain A, and B\' is height of mountain B, A\' = 3B\'
To express A\' = B\' + 3B\', I think you would have to say \"mountain A is three times higher again than mountain B\".

\"than\" is merely a word that introduces the comparison of a difference between two people, things or events. The difference can be qualified, e.g. \"higher\" \"lower\" \"bigger\" \"thinner\" \"more expensive\" \"less comfortable\", and you can also quantify the comparison: \"two more\" \"three less\" \"twice higher\" \"ten times lower\".

In your example \"He has two apples less than I have\", you are comparing how many apples there are (i.e. the apples themselves), but in \"mountain A is three times higher than mountain B\", you are comparing the height of the mountains (i.e. one property of the mountains)

Hope this helps.

Lucie Brione
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:02
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
Thank you all! So in future I will avoid use this usage,just using " A is x times as much as B instead, and when I meet this usage in reading I know its meaning. Again, thank you all!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Henrique Serra: crystal clear
3 mins

agree  elenus: ... more than crystal clear
27 mins

agree  Vicky Papaprodromou
28 mins

agree  nothing: Absolutely and the asker suggestion B= A-10B means that B is 0. That would be nice, producing something at no cost!
30 mins

agree  DGK T-I: ten fold lower (way of saying 'ten times lower') LATER: Dusty highlights the puzzling point that the experienced producers have 10times higher production costs -is there a misprint in the text for the question? There is no doubt re.meaning of "ten fold"
30 mins
  -> We've cleared that one up now !

agree  Huijer
1 hr

agree  Penelope Ausejo
1 hr

agree  Tony M: Yes, sorry, Lucie, you're right, it's ME who got muddled up, by the contradictory logic in your first answer; your latest version is of course completely correct!
2 hrs
  -> Thanks ! We managed to confuse each other :-)

agree  chopra_2002
4 hrs

agree  Hacene: agrre with Dusty and your reply
4 hrs

neutral  chica nueva: fold is never used for decreases, only for increases. You say 'a tenth of'. I find this confusing in Chinese too, because I think the conventions in the two languages are different.
14 hrs
  -> I wouldn't say it is never used for decreases, see Dr. Giuli Kvrivishvili's comment.

agree  RHELLER: this is the meaning although it is normally used to multiply the product rather than divide it
2 days4 hrs
  -> I agree, this usage is unusual.
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

1 day15 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
comment


Explanation:
I've never felt tempted to use it myself, but "ten fold lower" is used,

eg: in the journal "Nature" and scientific articles,
Ribozymes[#151]a snip too far?
... reconcile an optimal magnesium concentration for activity ( 15 mM) with the free
magnesium concentration in the cell, which is probably ten-fold lower than that ...
www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/ nsmb/journal/v10/n9/full/nsb0903-672.html
Factsheet
... This dietary difference appears to be a significant factor for a four-to-ten-fold
lower incidence of death from breast and prostate cancer in these countries. ...
www.crumcreek.com/library/factsheet.html
Amersham Biosciences - Specifications
... The lower limit of detection for 32 P is typically five to ten fold lower than the
limit for 14 C. 488 nm excited fluorescence: 100 amol FAM end-labelled DNA ...
www4.amershambiosciences.com/aptrix/upp01077.nsf/ Content/gel_blot_typhoon_specifications - 42k - 3 Apr 2004
Defra, UK - Environmental Protection - Air Quality
... The data suggest that current concentrations of B[a]P in London are more than ten-fold
lower than in the era of urban coal combustion (Commins and Hampton, 1976 ...
www.defra.gov.uk/environment/airquality/aqs/poly/4.htm
I would use "a tenth of...", or "ten times less than" but that isn't the point of course - the ntended meaning of "ten fold" seems clear
Sadly, I've no idea about Chinese conventions in such matters, so I can't say whether that affects anything.



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Note added at 1 day 15 hrs 54 mins (2004-04-04 01:28:56 GMT)
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typo. \'...the intended meaning...\'

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Note added at 2 days 11 hrs 18 mins (2004-04-04 20:52:10 GMT)
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Asker writes:
\"Forgive me I just give another question here: for the sentence: That can increase metabolic rates by two or three times¡±, how much is the original metabolic rate as compared with the increased one? Thank You! Have A Great Sunday\"

The original metabolic rate is half or a third of the increased rate.


\'Than\' doesn\'t really mean \'over\' (the margin), but \"compared with\" or \"the amount that one of the two items has\". \'Jack is ten fold lighter than the giant\', means that Jack\'s weight is a tenth of the giant\'s weight - \'than\' is \'compared with\' and/or \'the weight of the giant\'. Perhaps it is easier to understand if the sentence is expanded to \"Jack\'s weight is ten times smaller than that of the giant\". It may seem odd - but it is so....


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 12 hrs 55 mins (2004-04-04 22:29:08 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

\"he has 2 apples more than me\" he has a margin of 2 apples of 2 apples more than me (than me = apples I have)
\"he has 2 fold more apples than me\" he has twice the number of apples that I have
(trust Lucie :-)


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Note added at 2 days 13 hrs 37 mins (2004-04-04 23:11:34 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

:-)

DGK T-I
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:02
Works in field

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  RHELLER: precisely
13 hrs

agree  Lucie Brione
17 hrs
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