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administer a signature

German translation: bei der Unterschriftsleistung zugegen sein

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
English term or phrase:administer a signature
German translation:bei der Unterschriftsleistung zugegen sein
Entered by: Johanna Timm, PhD
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21:37 May 14, 2002
English to German translations [Non-PRO]
Law/Patents / affidavit
English term or phrase: administer a signature
This is probably very simple, but I have been struggling with this doc. all morning and would be grateful for any confirmation/ advice.

I am translating an affidavit written in very poor English.
It concerns a mother's consent to her child's travelling abroad.
The affifavit is signed by a public notary and by the mother.
Attached is another affidavit by that same notary in which the notary states:
I XY, make oath and say as follows:
"I administered the signature of ( mother) on her affidavit sworn before me."

This affidavit is then notarized by a second notary.

My question:does "administered" mean that notary no. 1 signed the affidavit no. 1 on behalf of the mother, or did she oversee the signing procedure and the mother did indeed sign in person?

In analogy to "administering an oath", I would think the latter, but given the overall poorly written text( and are 2 different notaries needed?) I would really like to be certain. Many thanks.
Johanna Timm, PhD
Canada
Local time: 23:11
Attempt at an explanation:
Explanation:
Hi Johanna,
Since the legal requirements with regard to the form of affidavits and the like differ from country to country, my NZ expertise is of little help here.

I think Georg made a good point with regard to comparing the signatures. Also, had notary public No. 1 in fact signed on behalf of the mother, this would be indicated e.g. by putting "p.p." or "in proxy". In any case, I think it's highly unlikely that the notary public signed on behalf of the mother, as the notary public is not the mother's representative (that would have been a lawyer, for example). The function of a notary public is to witness signatures, administer oaths and to ensure that the legal requirements as to the form are complied with.
Moreoever, if the mother swore the affidavit before notary public No. 1, she would have signed it immediately after that (that's the practice in NZ and imho the only practice that would make sense). Since I've never heard of a signature being "administered" (and none of my clever books on legal usage mention anything along these lines), I'm assuming that it means "to witness the signature" (whether the notary public got her lingo confused or this is some quaint local usage).

I sure don't understand why a second affidavit sworn by np No. 1 and notarised by np No. 2 should be necessary. Usually, the signature of a notary public under a document is accepted by virtue of his/her office and there is no need to notarise their signatures (if this was the case, it would be only logical that the affidivat by np No. 2 should also require notarisation by np No. 3 - ad infinitum).

To cut a long story short - I really don't know why they operate the way they do. I would include a translator's note explaining that "to administer a signature" is not accepted standard legal usage and that your translation is based on conjecture.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-05-14 23:03:41 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Oops - I forgot the translation into German:
to witness a signature = durch Unterzeichnung der Urkunde bestätigen, dass man Zeuge der Unterzeichnunug der Urkunde war; eine Unterschrift bestätigen (Dietl/Lorenz); bei der Unterschrift zugegen sein (Romain)
Selected response from:

Beate Lutzebaeck
New Zealand
Local time: 18:11
Grading comment
Many thanks for the excellent explanation, and most of all for confirming my doubts as to the standard usage...feels always good to discover that one is not as dense as one thought... Georg, your hint was re: signature comparison was useful, and e-rich your input also helped!
I chose: bei der Unterschriftsleistung zugegen sein
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
4 +1bezeugte die Unterschrift
Georg Finsterwald
4die Unterschrift verabschieden
swisstell
1 +1Attempt at an explanation:Beate Lutzebaeck


  

Answers


17 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
die Unterschrift verabschieden


Explanation:
er verabschiedete ihre Unterschrift

in dieem Zusammenhang ist wohl gemeint, dass er persoenlich dazu sah, dass die Dame ihre Unterschrift auf das Dokument setzte. Or, as you correctly assume "he oversaw her putting her signature" and then notarized the whole thing. - Nothing else would seem to make much sense.

swisstell
Italy
Local time: 08:11
Native speaker of: German
PRO pts in pair: 1813
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26 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
bezeugte die Unterschrift


Explanation:
If the affifavit is signed by a public notary and by the mother you have 2 different handwritings. If the affifavit is signed by a public notary and on behalf of the mother you have one handwriting.
Apart of that, my experience with similar cases is: The mother/father/parents sign(s) and the notary signs as a witness.

Georg Finsterwald
Germany
Local time: 08:11
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in pair: 173

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Helga Humlova: I'd go for this one! maybe in conjunction with "bestaetige diesem mit einem Eintrag im Notarsbuch" (oder wie das heisst)
54 mins
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 1/5Answerer confidence 1/5 peer agreement (net): +1
Attempt at an explanation:


Explanation:
Hi Johanna,
Since the legal requirements with regard to the form of affidavits and the like differ from country to country, my NZ expertise is of little help here.

I think Georg made a good point with regard to comparing the signatures. Also, had notary public No. 1 in fact signed on behalf of the mother, this would be indicated e.g. by putting "p.p." or "in proxy". In any case, I think it's highly unlikely that the notary public signed on behalf of the mother, as the notary public is not the mother's representative (that would have been a lawyer, for example). The function of a notary public is to witness signatures, administer oaths and to ensure that the legal requirements as to the form are complied with.
Moreoever, if the mother swore the affidavit before notary public No. 1, she would have signed it immediately after that (that's the practice in NZ and imho the only practice that would make sense). Since I've never heard of a signature being "administered" (and none of my clever books on legal usage mention anything along these lines), I'm assuming that it means "to witness the signature" (whether the notary public got her lingo confused or this is some quaint local usage).

I sure don't understand why a second affidavit sworn by np No. 1 and notarised by np No. 2 should be necessary. Usually, the signature of a notary public under a document is accepted by virtue of his/her office and there is no need to notarise their signatures (if this was the case, it would be only logical that the affidivat by np No. 2 should also require notarisation by np No. 3 - ad infinitum).

To cut a long story short - I really don't know why they operate the way they do. I would include a translator's note explaining that "to administer a signature" is not accepted standard legal usage and that your translation is based on conjecture.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-05-14 23:03:41 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Oops - I forgot the translation into German:
to witness a signature = durch Unterzeichnung der Urkunde bestätigen, dass man Zeuge der Unterzeichnunug der Urkunde war; eine Unterschrift bestätigen (Dietl/Lorenz); bei der Unterschrift zugegen sein (Romain)

Beate Lutzebaeck
New Zealand
Local time: 18:11
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman, Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 883
Grading comment
Many thanks for the excellent explanation, and most of all for confirming my doubts as to the standard usage...feels always good to discover that one is not as dense as one thought... Georg, your hint was re: signature comparison was useful, and e-rich your input also helped!
I chose: bei der Unterschriftsleistung zugegen sein

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Сергей Лузан
15 hrs
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