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Let's sit at this table.

Greek translation: Ας καθίσουμε/κάτσουμε σ' αυτό το τραπέζι.

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
English term or phrase:Let's sit at this table.
Greek translation:Ας καθίσουμε/κάτσουμε σ' αυτό το τραπέζι.
Entered by: Vicky Papaprodromou
Options:
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20:15 Jul 31, 2004
English to Greek translations [Non-PRO]
Linguistics
English term or phrase: Let's sit at this table.
'LET'S SIT AT THIS TABLE" - Here is a short sentence but it invoves the use of the subjunctive which can be difficult in any language. I was wondering how you would say this in Greek? I appreciate any help and I think all of you do a wonderful job translating in your language. So far, I've seen no one in the Greek section of Kudoz that I would call a poor or marginal translator. Thanks again for your help.

Sincerely,

Brian Costello
Brian Costello
Ας καθίσουμε/κάτσουμε σ' αυτό το τραπέζι.
Explanation:
Hi Brian!!! This is an everyday phrase in Greece since Greek people very often go out to cafeterias, restaurants, etc.

[As ka'thisoume ("th" as in "theatre")/'katsoume s' af'to to tra'pezi]

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Note added at 16 mins (2004-07-31 20:32:01 GMT)
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In fact, in Greek Grammar this used to be the \"optative\" mood or \"enclisis\" to describe thinks we should do or hope to do or an imperative, depending on context.

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Note added at 4 days (2004-08-04 23:19:28 GMT) Post-grading
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Sorry for the typo: \"to describe things\" (not \"thinks\")
Selected response from:

Vicky Papaprodromou
Greece
Local time: 00:28
Grading comment
Hello / Kalimera Vicky. Thank you very much for your answer. In all fairness, Daphne was not far off the mark but you always seem to know what you're talking about!
--- Brian Costello
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
5 +12Ας καθίσουμε/κάτσουμε σ' αυτό το τραπέζι.
Vicky Papaprodromou
5 +4Ας καθήσουμε σ' αυτό το τραπέζιDaphne b
5 +3NOT FOR POINTSxxxelyann


Discussion entries: 2





  

Answers


14 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +4
let's sit at this table.
Ας καθήσουμε σ' αυτό το τραπέζι


Explanation:
Να καθήσουμε σ' αυτό το τραπέζι -> This is the "pure" subjunctive, so to speak, but you would preferably use the other option

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Note added at 2 hrs 44 mins (2004-07-31 23:00:04 GMT)
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Περί ορθογραφίας...
Σε τέτοιες περιπτώσεις, το καλύτερο είναι να συμβουλεύεται κανείς γραμματική της αρχαίας ελληνικής. Νομίζω ότι εφόσον το αρχαίο είναι με \"η\", και το νεοελληνικό πρέπει να είναι με \"η\". Το αν λόγω δημοτικής μπορεί να γραφεί και με γιώτα είναι άλλη υπόθεση, και απλώς καταλήγουμε στο ότι και τα δύο είναι σωστά.
Για κάθε ενδιαφερόμενο πάντως, οι κλίσεις του \"ήμαι\" (και κατ\' επέκταση του \"κάθημαι\", που είναι σύνθετο από την πρόθεση «κατά» και το ρήμα «ήμαι») έχουν ως εξής:

ΟΡΙΣΤΙΚΗ
ήμαι
ήσαι
ήται
ήμεθα
ήσθε
ήνται

ΥΠΟΤΑΚΤΙΚΗ
ώμαι
ή (με υποδιαστολή)
ήται
ώμεθα
ήσθε
ώνται

ΕΥΚΤΙΚΗ (νεοελληνιστί: ΑΣ καθήσω, κ.λπ.)
ήμην
ήο (με υποδιαστολή)
ήτο (με υποδιαστολή)
***ήμεθα*** (με υποδιαστολή)
ήσθε (με υποδιαστολή)
ήντο (με υποδιαστολή)

ΠΡΟΣΤΑΚΤΙΚΗ
-
ήσο
ήσθω
-
ήσθε
ήσθων

ΜΕΤΟΧΗ
ήμενος
ημένη
ήμενον

Ούτε ένα «ι»….


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Note added at 13 hrs 51 mins (2004-08-01 10:07:56 GMT)
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After the comments of colleagues, I think it is imperative that I provide some reference that the correct spelling is with an “η”, as I’ve written before, and this according to 6 dictionaries of irregular verbs /grammar books (Vyzantios, Tzartzanos, Georgopapadakos, High School Grammar of ancient Greek, New Dictionary of Irregular Verbs of Ancient Greek, Triantafyllidis’ School Grammar). I think this is enough reference and, anyway, they cannot all be wrong! The Dictionary of Irregular Verbs by A. Georgopapdakos, Thessaloniki 1964, says:

Κάθημαι, ουδ. αποθ., λαμβανόμενον ως πρκ. Του «καθέζομαι». Το ρήμα κλίνεται ως εξής: ενεστ. Κάθημαι, κάθησαι, κ.λπ., ***υποτ.*** καθώμαι, καθή, καθήται, καθώμεθα, ****καθήσθε****, καθώνται, ***ευκτ.*** καθήμην, καθήο, καθήτο, κ.λπ, προστ. κάθησο – σπν. κάθου – καθήσθω κ.λπ., απαρ. καθήσθαι, μτχ. καθήμενος, -η, -ον, πρτ. Εκαθήμην (εκάθησο, εκάθητο, κ.λπ.) ή καθήμην (καθήσο, καθήστο ή καθήτο, καθήμεθα, καθήσθε, καθήντο).

All disagreements welcome, but please give us some arguments instead of just saying “wrong spelling”.

I would say that the spelling with a “ι” is acceptable in modern Greek.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 11 mins (2004-08-01 20:27:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Brian, you must be confused enough by now, however, I’d like to add a final remark; personally, I would write the verb with an “heta”, but it would also be correct with a “iota”. The reason is the following:
There are 2 verbs:
a) Κάθομαι [ka’thomai] or κάθημαι [ka’theemai] in ancient Greek (which, as we all know, is the root of modern Greek). This means literally “to sit myself/oneself”.
b) [kathi’zo] which is a transitive verb and means 1) to make someone else sit, put someone else somewhere, and 2) to sit oneself.
Hence the confusion. The original form used is the one with “heta”. As language evolved though, Modern Greek, started forming the subjunctive of the verb “kathomai/kathemai” from the aorist subjunctive of verb “b” (kathizo), hence the spelling with a “ι”. The same applies to the past participle (i.e. formed on the basis of the transitive verb).
Hope this helps a little bit, but it sure is a difficult issue – just look at the hair-splitting we natives are doing and how much we disagree!



Daphne b
Sweden
Local time: 23:28
Native speaker of: Native in GreekGreek
PRO pts in category: 12

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Elena Petelos: Clarify please...νόμιζα ότι είναι με "η" και εγώ, αλλά το google μου βγάζει άπειρα "ι". Επειδή λείπω πολλά χρόνια...τι ακρίβώς ισχύει; ¨-)/thanks!!! :-)
2 mins
  -> Θα έλεγα με "η", γιατί με "ι" θα ήταν εάν το ρήμα ήταν σε -ίζω. Π.χ. το "να καταχωρήσω" είναι λάθος γιατί το ρήμα κανονικά είναι "καταχωρίζω" (και όχι καταχωρώ) -> καταχωρίσω (λέει ο Μπαμπινιώτης). ¶ρα, είναι με "ι" εάν είναι μεταβατικό (καθίζω κάποιον)

agree  xxxx-Translator: Hi, Daphne :)
3 mins
  -> Hello LA!

agree  Maria Nicholas
6 mins
  -> Thanks Maria!

agree  Mihailolja
30 mins
  -> Thanks!

disagree  xxxelyann: NO-NO-NO!! You are quoting sources for the spelling of an ancient Greek verb. Again, the AORIST SUBJUNCTIVE of "kathomai" is formed from the verb "KATHIZO" , NOT "kathemai". The correct spelling is with IOTA ONLY. Did you EVER see "καθησμένος"???
36 mins
  -> Sorry, but the root is the ancient Greek "ήμαι" (and thus "κάθημαι") and not "ίζω", which in all moods is written with an "η" and not an "ι".

agree  Calliope Sofianopoulos: "καθήμενος" εκ δεξιών του Πατρός, όχι καθισμένος... Δυστυχώς, σήμερα κι εγώ θα το έγραφα, λάθος μεν, αλλά καθισμένος. Η νεοελληνική, μαλλιαρή, μας έχει συνεπάρει. Αλλά το σωστό, σωστό. Θα καθήσουμε στο τραπέζι, λοιπόν.
18 hrs
  -> Thanks, Calliope!
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1 day50 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +3
Let's sit at this table
NOT FOR POINTS


Explanation:
The following are indicative references, authored by eminent Greek language experts, that attest to the correct spelling of all the aorist-subjunctive forms of "kathomai" (to sit) with iota.

* "Dictionary of Modern Greek" by G. Babiniotis: entry for "kathomai" with commentary on why the spelling with eta is incorrect.

* "Modern Greek Dictionary" by E. Kriaras: entry "kathomai".

* "Modern Grammar of Demotic Greek" by M. Triantafyllidis: pp 354&371.

* "Communicative Grammar of Modern Greek" by Ch. Klairis & G. Babiniotis, II, p.367 (list of irregular verbs: kathomai, kathiso, kathisa, kathismenos).

* "Modern Greek Grammar" by A.G. Tsopanakis: p.398, $563 (kathomai, kathisa <kathizo).

* "Greek Grammar: A Comprehensive Grammar of the Modern Language" by D. Holton, P. Mackridge, & I. Philippaki-Warburton: p.174 (kathomai, kathisa/ekatsa, kathise, kathiste, kathismenos).

* "Modern Greek Verbs" by A. Iordanidou: p.272 (table with the full verbal paradigm).

Once again: the Modern Greek verb "kathomai" a) is indeed a direct descendant of the ancient "kathemai" and b) forms MOST of its paradigm with an epsilon (κάθεσαι, κάθεται, etc.), where the ancient form showed an eta (κάθησαι, κάθηται, etc.) H > Ε

HOWEVER, the aorist theme in all moods is derived from the verb ΚΑΘΙΖΩ, NOT from κάθημαι, and this is why we write "κάθισα, καθίστε, καθίσουμε, καθισμένος, κάθισμα, καθιστός, etc.) and NOT, under any circumstances, *κάθησα, *καθήστε, * καθησμένος, *κάθησμα, *καθηστός, etc. It is as simple as that. In fact, it is not even a disputed case of Modern Greek spelling. Tricky, yes. Disputed, no.

Re: the participle "καθήμενος".
This is the participial form of the ANCIENT "κάθημαι", and NOT the Modern "κάθομαι". It is important to point out that the phrase MISquoted in defense of "καθήμενος" comes from a religious text, namely the Credo (sedet ad dexteram Patris). The correct quotation stands "και καθεζόμενον εκ δεξιών του Πατρός". In any case, this is church-speak and one would never encounter "καθήμενος" instead of "καθισμένος" in Modern Greek usage (unless one quoted the scriptures or aimed at a specific stylistic effect).

There are NOT 2 verbs in Modern Greek for "sit". There is only one, "kathomai". 95% of the forms of this verb derive from one older form (κάθημαι), while the remaining 5% (including the aorist-subjunctive) derives from ANOTHER VERB, WITH A DIFFERENT SPELLING, namely "καθίζω". Hence the obligatory iota.

The only standard spelling in Modern Greek is with iota. The spelling with an eta is wrong and pointed out as such in every authoritative Greek language book in use. Vicky's answer conforms to current Greek usage and scientific research. The rest is just an obfuscating attempt to make one right out of two wrongs.

For the record, I see no hair-splitting where blatant spelling errors are involved.

Good luck!

xxxelyann
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in GreekGreek

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Vicky Papaprodromou: Cheer up, "elyann". It's midsummer (night's dream??), Greece is rushing to the beach to sit (regardless the spelling) in the sun. No hair-splitting till October...out of respect for the Olympic Truce. :)))//You,too.No need to be so harsh on people, though
2 hrs
  -> Hi, Vicky! Olympics or no Olympics, what Proz seems to need is not a "truce", but a simple rule: if the answer does not fit the facts, throw out the answer, do not distort the facts. Enjoy the Games! :D

agree  Elena Petelos: Yes Elyann, you are definitely right and it is very kind of you to ecucidate this. Once before, although I did not quite agree with that explanation, another kind member gave her time to help us. :-) http://www.proz.com/kudoz/669153 // ...right again :-))
11 hrs
  -> Interesting link (ouch!). My take is, feel free to agree/disagree with the answer, not the person. It is business and pros should be able to take it, as in real life. :D

agree  Daphne b: quote: "the aorist theme in all moods is derived from the verb ΚΑΘΙΖΩ". Fair enough. I beg for forgiveness for my "blatant spelling error" & for "distorting the facts".Points to Vicky-or you for that matter. BTW, would you mind telling us... who you are?!
12 hrs
  -> I strongly disagreed with your answer, not you. Nothing personal. CU around... :D

agree  xxxx-Translator: I agree with Elena, it's wonderful to have members willing to give their time to help us even if they have no info available as to who they are. :D
21 hrs
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13 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +12
let's sit at this table.
Ας καθίσουμε/κάτσουμε σ' αυτό το τραπέζι.


Explanation:
Hi Brian!!! This is an everyday phrase in Greece since Greek people very often go out to cafeterias, restaurants, etc.

[As ka'thisoume ("th" as in "theatre")/'katsoume s' af'to to tra'pezi]

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 mins (2004-07-31 20:32:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In fact, in Greek Grammar this used to be the \"optative\" mood or \"enclisis\" to describe thinks we should do or hope to do or an imperative, depending on context.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2004-08-04 23:19:28 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry for the typo: \"to describe things\" (not \"thinks\")

Vicky Papaprodromou
Greece
Local time: 00:28
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in GreekGreek
PRO pts in category: 14
Grading comment
Hello / Kalimera Vicky. Thank you very much for your answer. In all fairness, Daphne was not far off the mark but you always seem to know what you're talking about!
--- Brian Costello

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Elena Petelos: ΄-))/ Με '"η" 'η με "ι"; confused...../Πράγματι....why?!? :-)))
3 mins
  -> Thanks, Elena!//I used to be confused, too but the Word spell-checker insists on "ι".//Ha, ha, ha. Great, UK!!!//Θα σε γελάσω και καθόλου δεν το θέλω.

agree  Maria Nicholas
7 mins
  -> Thanks, Maria!

agree  Mihailolja
31 mins
  -> Τhanks, Mihailo!

agree  xxxelyann: Yes, the spelling with iota is the correct spelling :)
37 mins
  -> Thanks, Elyann!

agree  Maria Karra: Είναι απ'ό,τι φαίνεται εξαίρεση. Αυτό που λέει η Δάφνη για το "καθίζω" και το καταχωρίζω κι εμένα μου φαίνεται λογικό γραμματικώς, αλλά ο Κριαράς γράφει καθαρά "κάθομαι, αόρ. κάθισα και έκατσα, μτχ. καθισμένος".
1 hr
  -> Thanks, Maria! Εγώ πάντως έχω πάντα την προδιάθεση να γράψω τη λέξη με "η" και μετά θυμάμαι πως είναι λαθος και πιέζομαι για να το γράψω σωστά. Το έχω δει στα λεξικά όπως κι εσύ αλλά μάλλον κακή μας συνήθεια ήταν η γραφή της λέξης με "η".

agree  Eva Karpouzi
4 hrs
  -> Thanks, Eva!

agree  Margaret Lagoyianni
12 hrs
  -> Thanks, Margaret!

agree  Maria Ferstl: με ι
12 hrs
  -> Thanks, Maria!

agree  sassa: Νεοελληνική Γραμματική - Αναπροσαρμογή της Μικρής Νεοελληνικής Γραμματικής του Μανόλη Τριανταφυλλίδη, ΟΕΔΒ, σελ. 238 // http://www.kybernografoi.gr/modules.php?name=Content&pa=show...
15 hrs
  -> Thanks, Sassa! You are always offering wonderful links. :)))

agree  Georgios Paraskevopoulos
1 day48 mins
  -> Thanks!

agree  Evdoxia R.
1 day9 hrs
  -> Thanks!

agree  Daphne b: It appears that in Modern Greek it is only spelled with a "iota". Yours Vicky!
1 day13 hrs
  -> So it does, indeed. Thanks, Daphne!
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