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Invert the sphere

Hebrew translation: להפוך את הכדור

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
English term or phrase:Invert the sphere
Hebrew translation:להפוך את הכדור
Entered by: Irina Glozman
Options:
- Contribute to this entry
- Include in personal glossary

02:15 Aug 13, 2002
English to Hebrew translations [Non-PRO]
Art/Literary
English term or phrase: Invert the sphere
Invert, as in to show the oposite of, the 3-d geometric form of a circle, a sphere.
Nate
Laafokh et ha-kadur - להפוך את הכדור
Explanation:
Laafokh et ha-kadur - להפוך את הכדור

to invert = laafokh (להפוך), with a stress on the last syllable

the sphere = ha-kadur (הכדור), with a stress on the last syllable


Please note: I gave here literal, not figurative translation.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-08-14 07:07:28 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Since 3 native speakers so strongly suggest that there is an articulated (not only written) \'h\' in la-hafokh, I add this addition and explanation to my answer.

----------------

To John, Sue and Suzan,

I repatriated to Israel when I was a child. I finished here a school and university. In university I studied Linguistics (of Hebrew and English languages).
Three of you know, that in Hebrew letters I wrote this \"h\", but I didn\'t mentioned it in \"how to pronoune\", since nowadays it is hardly pronounced (by some speakers yes, and by some no - I mean NATIVE speakers), especially in the phonetic environment it appears in this word.
I understand your wish to enter this sound into this word, but please note (and there is nothing new in what I am going to say), native speakers, have difficulties to disconnect from written form of a word when they perfectly know how it looks. Exactly because of this matter, Native speakers are never involved in accumulation of phonological data.


I think I made myself clear.
So, do not be so surprised. You can refer to some books dealing with contemporary Hebrew, for example of Shmuel Bolotzky or Shlomo Izrael.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-08-14 21:23:19 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Dear John,

Please let me add here some information:

1. You wrote: \"Yes, sure, you will always find people whose grasp of their own language is imperfect. Furthermore and more importantly, the way you pronounce words in highly informal contexts (e.g. when buying fruit and veg down the market) is not always strictly \'high register\' - colloquial pronunciation can be very fuzzy.

- I never buy fruits and vegs down the market. There is other thing that governs the pronuciation/articulation of \"h\". \"h\" is, as every linguist know, a glottal fricative and determined as semi-vowel, a voiced aspirate. Modern Ashkenazi (European) reading tradition ignores this (along with \"ain\" and \"aleph\"); however Sephardic (North-African) Jews and Israeli Arabs accent these phonemes, in a fashion which resembles Arabic.


2. You wrote: \"But when providing a translation in a formal context such as this, you need to transliterate it correctly.\"

- I agree with this and with the fact that TV and radio network standard is to pronounce \"h\" and , as you can see, I added some addition according to your comment. Thank you.

3. You wrote: \"Finally, everyone I know articulates the \'h\' quite clearly.\"
-Yes, John. I am quite sure you do articulate \"h\" (for example in words\' beginnings), but not in this particular phonologic environment (by phonologic environment I mean two similar vowels \"a\" that make the pronuciation of \"h\" here almost impossible, because of two consequential processes: assimilation and deletion.)


Regards,
Irina


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-08-17 13:42:37 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Dear John,
Now, when you are trying so hard to find contra-arguments to solid facts I gave you from contemporary books dealing with Modern Hebrew and its analysis (written by Hebrew native speakers) you say the word laafokh/lahafokh 100 times, wishing to hear this \"h\" - in such conditions I am sure you do articulate it even in this phonological environment (between to similar vowels \"a\", that hardly give you a possibility for aspiration required for the articulation of \"h\").
All linguistic data is allways accumulated from spontaneous speech, not when a speaker is aware of what should/shouldn\'t be articulated. As I said, in other words and in other phonologic environments the semi-vowel consonant \"h\" may be articulated due to other consonats that cause it to be articulated. Not in this word. In this word the situation is inverse. I am not going to explain here again any linguisically approved facts and repeat things I have already said before.
The terms I use are LINGUISIC terms.
The authors I mentioned are professors in Linguistics and major researchers of Modern Hebrew and Hebrew phonology (BTW, phonology is: \"The study of speech sounds in language or a language with reference to their distribution and patterning and to tacit rules governing pronunciation.\"), both native speakers.

2. Name German of the cosmonaut German Titov was given to him by his parents, mam and dad, not because Russians \"have great difficulty pronouncing \'h\' \". I am not going to give you a lecture here on norms and strategies of Russian transcription of names borrowed from other languages, on when these names have Russian \"G\" or \"X (kh)\". In any case, I do not understand what your \"German Titov\" example is good for in this discussion? - Russian alia does not pronounce this word as \"lagafokh\"...

With best wishes,
Irina



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-08-18 09:14:37 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

John,
I could give here many professors\' \"THEORETICAL statements\", but I gave here statements made by professors who deal with and analyze spoken Modern Hebrew language. The data, used in such analyses, is accumulated by researchers who tape-recorded the speech of different speakers, and then analyzed it - made PRACTICAL work. Moreover, these researches contain data accumulated from MANY Hebrew language speakers (not only 3). I am sorry you are not familiar with the way linguistic researches are carried out, since you do not have linguistic background (or you just did not claim you have). BTW, as it can be seen from Sue Goldian ITA profile – she has Hebrew as her “second mother tongue language”, exactly as I have. Finally, you live in UK, so let me guess, you do not have too many Hebrew speakers around you to argue about Modern Hebrew language spoken in Israel (BTW, Suzan lives in US, am I right?)
You are trying to get things I say out of the context and trying to say that I am a “fresh” repatriate without ears, who has nothing but difficulties with Hebrew – I am not such a person. I was sure there is no need to repeat things I already wrote before but, if you insist, here comes detailed explanation:
1. First of all, there are speakers, that do/do not articulate \'h\' regardless of their level of education. Just because of their origin - \"Modern Ashkenazi (European) reading tradition ignores this (along with \"ain\" and \"aleph\"); however Sephardic (North-African) Jews and Israeli Arabs accent these phonemes, in a fashion which resembles Arabic.\" If at least one parent in family articulates \'h\' (or any other sound) because of parent\'s origin, it may cause the child to articulate it too.
1.2 There is no surprise in the fact that teachers do articulate \'h\'. They speak slowly and make special accents on \"difficult\" sounds (difficult not only for Russian alia, but for majority of ex-Europeans). I already said before, \"the TV and radio network standard is to pronounciate \'h\' \". Both teachers (especially in primary school) and media (TV and radio) have the same purpose - to say things in a way they should be said (historically).

Thus, if you/Sue/Suzan suit at least one of aforementioned criteria (I mean your/your parents origin or if you speak slowly) you may have the ability to articulate \'h\' even in this phonological environment (but please do me a favor - try to listen and check how others, not involved in our discussion HEBREW NATIVE SPEAKERS say this word, or any other word where the semi-vowel consonant \'h\' is surrounded by vowels (especially ‘a’, ‘o’ or ‘u’ – the deep vowels) - for ex. the following words: אוהלים, משהו). Ask your Hebrew-speaking friends to say some sentences containing these words in their regular speech speed. SPONTANEOUSLY. Do not tell them to pay special attention to ‘h’. Let them say these words in a usual way they say them. Or even put these words in some sentence and ask your friends to repeat these sentences. Listen and be fair.

2. I never said your facts are \"fiction\", but I think you should not argue with linguistically approved facts. It looks like you think and try to say that “some impudent repatriate is trying to teach you, NATIVE SPEAKER, how to say words in your mother tongue”. I am trying to put your attention to contemporary Hebrew pronunciation. All facts I bring to this discussion are corroborated by my linguistic background and by everyday speech of Hebrew native speakers here in Israel.

3. You wrote: “Irina is a Russian speaker, and surely she knows it is the case. This may colour her perception of the way \'h\' is pronounced in Hebrew by native speakers such as myself.”
I already explained this matter too:
a. “I understand your wish to enter this sound into this word, but please note (and there is nothing new in what I am going to say), native speakers, have difficulties to disconnect from written form of a word when they perfectly know how it looks. Exactly because of this matter, Native speakers are never involved in accumulation of phonological data.”
In particular, because of different ways of “perception”, I supported my answer with results of analyses of Modern Hebrew language.
b. I never avoided the fact I am a Russian speaker. Along with this I already wrote “I repatriated to Israel when I was a child. I finished here a school and university.” I am proud I have Russian as my mother tongue and Hebrew as my second mother tongue, and I hear, speak and write both languages in my everyday life/work.

Have a good day,
Irina


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-08-18 16:57:14 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

All,
You are really surprising me! While I am trying to bring facts proven by academic researches (I will repeat – researches based on practical studies, not theoretical ones), which are based on data gathered among hundreds of people from different origins, ages, etc., you bring your personal experiences, your relatives, friends and pronunciation you hear over the phone.
Please go and argue with those researches.

You continue to bring my experience, as a Russian speaker, to this argument. Please do not. My statements are not only based on what I personally hear or talk, but rather on academic researches, which I have studied during my linguistic degree.

I did not mention to express “criticism of Sue’s proficiency in Hebrew” and sorry if it seemed as such. I just wanted to express two things:
1. Those who do not live in Israel have rather limited access to contemporary israeli Hebrew, which is restricted (as you have proved) by friends, family etc.
2. I do not live in Israel for 34 years, as Sue does, but I live here more than half of my life and I am also fluent in both Hebrew and Russian.

Regards,
Irina.
Selected response from:

Irina Glozman
United States
Local time: 11:00
Grading comment
Graded automatically based on peer agreement. KudoZ.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
5 +2noneSue Goldian
5 +2la-hafokh et ha-kadurJohn Kinory
4 +2Laafokh et ha-kadur - להפוך את הכדור
Irina Glozman


  

Answers


6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
Laafokh et ha-kadur - להפוך את הכדור


Explanation:
Laafokh et ha-kadur - להפוך את הכדור

to invert = laafokh (להפוך), with a stress on the last syllable

the sphere = ha-kadur (הכדור), with a stress on the last syllable


Please note: I gave here literal, not figurative translation.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-08-14 07:07:28 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Since 3 native speakers so strongly suggest that there is an articulated (not only written) \'h\' in la-hafokh, I add this addition and explanation to my answer.

----------------

To John, Sue and Suzan,

I repatriated to Israel when I was a child. I finished here a school and university. In university I studied Linguistics (of Hebrew and English languages).
Three of you know, that in Hebrew letters I wrote this \"h\", but I didn\'t mentioned it in \"how to pronoune\", since nowadays it is hardly pronounced (by some speakers yes, and by some no - I mean NATIVE speakers), especially in the phonetic environment it appears in this word.
I understand your wish to enter this sound into this word, but please note (and there is nothing new in what I am going to say), native speakers, have difficulties to disconnect from written form of a word when they perfectly know how it looks. Exactly because of this matter, Native speakers are never involved in accumulation of phonological data.


I think I made myself clear.
So, do not be so surprised. You can refer to some books dealing with contemporary Hebrew, for example of Shmuel Bolotzky or Shlomo Izrael.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-08-14 21:23:19 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Dear John,

Please let me add here some information:

1. You wrote: \"Yes, sure, you will always find people whose grasp of their own language is imperfect. Furthermore and more importantly, the way you pronounce words in highly informal contexts (e.g. when buying fruit and veg down the market) is not always strictly \'high register\' - colloquial pronunciation can be very fuzzy.

- I never buy fruits and vegs down the market. There is other thing that governs the pronuciation/articulation of \"h\". \"h\" is, as every linguist know, a glottal fricative and determined as semi-vowel, a voiced aspirate. Modern Ashkenazi (European) reading tradition ignores this (along with \"ain\" and \"aleph\"); however Sephardic (North-African) Jews and Israeli Arabs accent these phonemes, in a fashion which resembles Arabic.


2. You wrote: \"But when providing a translation in a formal context such as this, you need to transliterate it correctly.\"

- I agree with this and with the fact that TV and radio network standard is to pronounce \"h\" and , as you can see, I added some addition according to your comment. Thank you.

3. You wrote: \"Finally, everyone I know articulates the \'h\' quite clearly.\"
-Yes, John. I am quite sure you do articulate \"h\" (for example in words\' beginnings), but not in this particular phonologic environment (by phonologic environment I mean two similar vowels \"a\" that make the pronuciation of \"h\" here almost impossible, because of two consequential processes: assimilation and deletion.)


Regards,
Irina


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-08-17 13:42:37 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Dear John,
Now, when you are trying so hard to find contra-arguments to solid facts I gave you from contemporary books dealing with Modern Hebrew and its analysis (written by Hebrew native speakers) you say the word laafokh/lahafokh 100 times, wishing to hear this \"h\" - in such conditions I am sure you do articulate it even in this phonological environment (between to similar vowels \"a\", that hardly give you a possibility for aspiration required for the articulation of \"h\").
All linguistic data is allways accumulated from spontaneous speech, not when a speaker is aware of what should/shouldn\'t be articulated. As I said, in other words and in other phonologic environments the semi-vowel consonant \"h\" may be articulated due to other consonats that cause it to be articulated. Not in this word. In this word the situation is inverse. I am not going to explain here again any linguisically approved facts and repeat things I have already said before.
The terms I use are LINGUISIC terms.
The authors I mentioned are professors in Linguistics and major researchers of Modern Hebrew and Hebrew phonology (BTW, phonology is: \"The study of speech sounds in language or a language with reference to their distribution and patterning and to tacit rules governing pronunciation.\"), both native speakers.

2. Name German of the cosmonaut German Titov was given to him by his parents, mam and dad, not because Russians \"have great difficulty pronouncing \'h\' \". I am not going to give you a lecture here on norms and strategies of Russian transcription of names borrowed from other languages, on when these names have Russian \"G\" or \"X (kh)\". In any case, I do not understand what your \"German Titov\" example is good for in this discussion? - Russian alia does not pronounce this word as \"lagafokh\"...

With best wishes,
Irina



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-08-18 09:14:37 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

John,
I could give here many professors\' \"THEORETICAL statements\", but I gave here statements made by professors who deal with and analyze spoken Modern Hebrew language. The data, used in such analyses, is accumulated by researchers who tape-recorded the speech of different speakers, and then analyzed it - made PRACTICAL work. Moreover, these researches contain data accumulated from MANY Hebrew language speakers (not only 3). I am sorry you are not familiar with the way linguistic researches are carried out, since you do not have linguistic background (or you just did not claim you have). BTW, as it can be seen from Sue Goldian ITA profile – she has Hebrew as her “second mother tongue language”, exactly as I have. Finally, you live in UK, so let me guess, you do not have too many Hebrew speakers around you to argue about Modern Hebrew language spoken in Israel (BTW, Suzan lives in US, am I right?)
You are trying to get things I say out of the context and trying to say that I am a “fresh” repatriate without ears, who has nothing but difficulties with Hebrew – I am not such a person. I was sure there is no need to repeat things I already wrote before but, if you insist, here comes detailed explanation:
1. First of all, there are speakers, that do/do not articulate \'h\' regardless of their level of education. Just because of their origin - \"Modern Ashkenazi (European) reading tradition ignores this (along with \"ain\" and \"aleph\"); however Sephardic (North-African) Jews and Israeli Arabs accent these phonemes, in a fashion which resembles Arabic.\" If at least one parent in family articulates \'h\' (or any other sound) because of parent\'s origin, it may cause the child to articulate it too.
1.2 There is no surprise in the fact that teachers do articulate \'h\'. They speak slowly and make special accents on \"difficult\" sounds (difficult not only for Russian alia, but for majority of ex-Europeans). I already said before, \"the TV and radio network standard is to pronounciate \'h\' \". Both teachers (especially in primary school) and media (TV and radio) have the same purpose - to say things in a way they should be said (historically).

Thus, if you/Sue/Suzan suit at least one of aforementioned criteria (I mean your/your parents origin or if you speak slowly) you may have the ability to articulate \'h\' even in this phonological environment (but please do me a favor - try to listen and check how others, not involved in our discussion HEBREW NATIVE SPEAKERS say this word, or any other word where the semi-vowel consonant \'h\' is surrounded by vowels (especially ‘a’, ‘o’ or ‘u’ – the deep vowels) - for ex. the following words: אוהלים, משהו). Ask your Hebrew-speaking friends to say some sentences containing these words in their regular speech speed. SPONTANEOUSLY. Do not tell them to pay special attention to ‘h’. Let them say these words in a usual way they say them. Or even put these words in some sentence and ask your friends to repeat these sentences. Listen and be fair.

2. I never said your facts are \"fiction\", but I think you should not argue with linguistically approved facts. It looks like you think and try to say that “some impudent repatriate is trying to teach you, NATIVE SPEAKER, how to say words in your mother tongue”. I am trying to put your attention to contemporary Hebrew pronunciation. All facts I bring to this discussion are corroborated by my linguistic background and by everyday speech of Hebrew native speakers here in Israel.

3. You wrote: “Irina is a Russian speaker, and surely she knows it is the case. This may colour her perception of the way \'h\' is pronounced in Hebrew by native speakers such as myself.”
I already explained this matter too:
a. “I understand your wish to enter this sound into this word, but please note (and there is nothing new in what I am going to say), native speakers, have difficulties to disconnect from written form of a word when they perfectly know how it looks. Exactly because of this matter, Native speakers are never involved in accumulation of phonological data.”
In particular, because of different ways of “perception”, I supported my answer with results of analyses of Modern Hebrew language.
b. I never avoided the fact I am a Russian speaker. Along with this I already wrote “I repatriated to Israel when I was a child. I finished here a school and university.” I am proud I have Russian as my mother tongue and Hebrew as my second mother tongue, and I hear, speak and write both languages in my everyday life/work.

Have a good day,
Irina


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-08-18 16:57:14 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

All,
You are really surprising me! While I am trying to bring facts proven by academic researches (I will repeat – researches based on practical studies, not theoretical ones), which are based on data gathered among hundreds of people from different origins, ages, etc., you bring your personal experiences, your relatives, friends and pronunciation you hear over the phone.
Please go and argue with those researches.

You continue to bring my experience, as a Russian speaker, to this argument. Please do not. My statements are not only based on what I personally hear or talk, but rather on academic researches, which I have studied during my linguistic degree.

I did not mention to express “criticism of Sue’s proficiency in Hebrew” and sorry if it seemed as such. I just wanted to express two things:
1. Those who do not live in Israel have rather limited access to contemporary israeli Hebrew, which is restricted (as you have proved) by friends, family etc.
2. I do not live in Israel for 34 years, as Sue does, but I live here more than half of my life and I am also fluent in both Hebrew and Russian.

Regards,
Irina.

Irina Glozman
United States
Local time: 11:00
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in pair: 8
Grading comment
Graded automatically based on peer agreement. KudoZ.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  John Kinory: There is an 'h' in la-hafokh
7 hrs
  -> Do you really articulate it?

neutral  Sue Goldian: There is an 'h' in la-hafokh
7 hrs
  -> Do you really articulate it?

neutral  Suzan: There is an 'h' in la-hafokh
7 hrs
  -> Do you really articulate it?

agree  Olga Grabovsky
3 days8 hrs
  -> Thank you very much for your support! ;)

agree  Tali Waisman: There is an 'h' in laHafokh, but I do not really articulate it there.
5 days
  -> Thank you for your support! ;)
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

19 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +2
la-hafokh et ha-kadur


Explanation:
להפוך את הכדור

la- = to

hafokh = invert, reverse

et = direct object marker

ha- = the

kadur = ball, sphere



PS. I am surprised that Irina finds it necessary to argue with 3 native Hebrew speakers as to the correct pronunciation, which is as given in the first line of my answer.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-08-14 09:01:13 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

PPS. Since Irina persists in arguing about it, let me add:
Yes, sure, you will always find people whose grasp of their own language is imperfect. Furthermore and more importantly, the way you pronounce words in highly informal contexts (e.g. when buying fruit and veg down the market) is not always strictly \'high register\' - colloquial pronunciation can be very fuzzy. But when providing a translation in a formal context such as this, you need to transliterate it correctly.
Finally, everyone I know articulates the \'h\' quite clearly.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-08-16 23:26:23 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Irina goes on to assert, inter alia:

-Yes, John. I am quite sure you do articulate \"h\" (for example in words\' beginnings), but not in this particular phonologic environment (by phonologic environment I mean two similar vowels \"a\" that make the pronuciation of \"h\" here almost impossible, because of two consequential processes: assimilation and deletion.)

I wonder just exactly how Irina knows that I don\'t articulate \'h\' \"in this particular environment\". On the contrary: I most certainly do articulate it. She may consider it impossible, but I still do it. Sue and Suzan also do, apparently. We pronounce it as a consonant between 2 vowels, or whatever technical terms Irina wants to apply to it.

It is a fact that native Russian speakers have great difficulty pronouncing \'h\'. That is why the second Russian cosmonaut was called German Titov and not Herman Titov, for example. But native Hebrew speakers do not have this difficulty.




--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-08-17 23:44:42 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Irina can quote as many professors as she likes. She claims that the actual facts that I, Sue and Suzan agree on are NOT facts. Perhaps she thinks we made them up. But quoting (from books) what professors THINK should be facts, does not change reality one little bit. It doesn\'t turn the professors\' THEORETICAL statements into facts, and it doesn\'t turn my REAL facts into fiction.
And the real fact here is that I have been pronouncing la-hafokh, with the \'h\' perfectly clearly articulated, ever since I started speaking Hebrew as a tiny toddler. I never stopped doing so. That is correct Hebrew, and that is how I have always spoken it. So did most of my classmates in primary school. So did most of my classmates in secondary school. So did most of my classmates at the Hebrew university. So did most of my mates in the Israeli airforce. There were a few exceptions of people speaking carelessly, of course: it would be a miracle if it weren\'t so, especially in Israel, where people arrive with a first, a second, a third language which is not Hebrew, and their children hear all those languages at home. But the way we were taught to speak, and the way our teachers insisted we speak, and scolded us if we didn\'t, was to pronounce the \'h\' in la-Hafokh. And we did.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-08-17 23:55:55 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I am glad Irina does NOT deny that Russian speakers have a problem with pronouncing \'h\' the way it is pronounced in most Middle Eastern, Central and West European languages: she merely avoids the issue. Irina is a Russian speaker, and surely she knows it is the case. This may colour her perception of the way \'h\' is pronounced in Hebrew by native speakers such as myself.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-08-18 15:22:18 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Now Irina claims that because I live in the UK, I \'do not have too many Hebrew speakers around you to argue about Modern Hebrew language spoken in Israel\'. That, again, is a counterfactual statement, and I wonder why Irina makes it with no evidence to support it. I visit Israel often, and speak with Israelis: I have a huge family there (dozens of people), ranging in age from 2 to 60. Most of them were born in Israel. I regularly speak to them on the phone. When I speak to 10-year olds, I hear the way they pronounce modern Hebrew. Therefore, I have sufficient empirical evidence for my statements.

I am sure Sue can defend herself without my help, against the implied (and quite uncalled-for) criticism of her proficiency in spoken Hebrew. But I can tell you for nought, that I have spoken to her on the phone a number of times and can vouch for her perfect pronunciation (native Israeli intonation and all). And she articulates all her aitches just as I do.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-08-19 22:05:46 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

And yet another counter-factual assertion from Irina (she presents no evidence for it whatsoever, and what is more, it shows rather careless reading of my explanation, because I had made quite clear that this isn\'t the case); she claims that

\'Those who do not live in Israel have rather limited access to contemporary israeli Hebrew, which is restricted (as you have proved) by [I assume she means \'to\' - JK] friends, family etc\'.

Well, no, it isn\'t. I already said that I visit Israel often. In addition to my 10-year old relatives, and 20-year old relatives, and 40-year old relatives, and 60-year old relatives (most of whom were born in Israel and have never lived anywhere else), I also speak with my professional colleagues, and with bus drivers, and fruit and veg vendors, and staff in bookshops and in restaurants, and so on and so forth.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-09-05 07:45:01 (GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Wrong answer chosen, yet again. Just goes to show ...


    Native Hebrew speaker
John Kinory
Local time: 19:00
PRO pts in pair: 43

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Sue Goldian: Excellent. And I am at least as surprised as you are, if not more so.
7 mins
  -> Thanks :-)

agree  Suzan: Yes. And that makes it three surprised native Hebrew speakers.
28 mins
  -> Thanks :-)
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

5 days   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +2
none


Explanation:
My apologies to the asker for using the answer option in order to respond to Irina's comments, but I have no other way to do it. Since she mentioned me in her longwinded comments and rebuttals and whatevers, I feel the need to reply to her in an equally public manner, rather than privately. I'll try to keep it brief.

Yes Irina, Hebrew is my second language, although the use of the term "second native language" (or is it second mother tongue...I can't remember now) is an ITAism. However, and just FYI, I have lived in Israel for the past 34 years, since the age of 11. I went to school here in Israel. And yes, I am equally fluent in both languages. And I translate in both directions with equal facility and accuracy. Not only that, I actually talk to Israelis, both native born and foreign born, all of whom clearly articulate the letter heh in the middle of a word, or at the beginning of a word, for that matter. I do realize that people whose native language is Russian have a problem with the letter heh, and have a tendency to pronounce it like the letter gimel, but they are a minority. Most of the Russian born Israelis that I am acquainted with have no trouble prounouncing the letter heh, and do indeed pronounce it. Ditto the Iranian-born Israelis, the Moroccan-born Israelis, the native-born Israelis and all the rest, including my fellow American-born Israelis.

And that is my final word on the subject.




Sue Goldian
Local time: 21:00
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 50

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  John Kinory: Bravo! See also my brief reference to you at the end of my last comment above (and my apologies for referring to you without your permission, and indeed for dragging you into this debate in the first place).
8 mins
  -> Thanks Yoni. And no apologies necessary. You didn't drag me into this debate. Irina did.

agree  Suzan: Good for you, Sue. I can't believe this debate is still going on. If it makes her happy to say 'la'afokh', let her. Obviously nothing will change her mind about this.
1 day16 hrs
  -> Thanks Suzan. You're absolutely right. I just hope the asker knows enough Hebrew to know who is right and who is wrong here.
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The KudoZ network provides a framework for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases.



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