Invert the sphere
Hebrew translation: להפוך את הכדור
| GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW) | ||||||
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| 02:15 Aug 13, 2002 |
| English to Hebrew translations [Non-PRO] Art/Literary | ||||
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|  Selected response from: Irina Glozman United States Local time: 06:32 | |||
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| 5 +2 | la-hafokh et ha-kadur |
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| 5 +2 | none |
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| 4 +2 | Laafokh et ha-kadur - להפוך את הכדור |
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Answers
6 hrs confidence: 
peer agreement (net): +2
peer agreement (net): +2Laafokh et ha-kadur - להפוך את הכדור Explanation: Laafokh et ha-kadur - להפוך את הכדור to invert = laafokh (להפוך), with a stress on the last syllable the sphere = ha-kadur (הכדור), with a stress on the last syllable Please note: I gave here literal, not figurative translation. -------------------------------------------------- Note added at 2002-08-14 07:07:28 (GMT) -------------------------------------------------- Since 3 native speakers so strongly suggest that there is an articulated (not only written) \'h\' in la-hafokh, I add this addition and explanation to my answer. ---------------- To John, Sue and Suzan, I repatriated to Israel when I was a child. I finished here a school and university. In university I studied Linguistics (of Hebrew and English languages). Three of you know, that in Hebrew letters I wrote this \"h\", but I didn\'t mentioned it in \"how to pronoune\", since nowadays it is hardly pronounced (by some speakers yes, and by some no - I mean NATIVE speakers), especially in the phonetic environment it appears in this word. I understand your wish to enter this sound into this word, but please note (and there is nothing new in what I am going to say), native speakers, have difficulties to disconnect from written form of a word when they perfectly know how it looks. Exactly because of this matter, Native speakers are never involved in accumulation of phonological data. I think I made myself clear. So, do not be so surprised. You can refer to some books dealing with contemporary Hebrew, for example of Shmuel Bolotzky or Shlomo Izrael. -------------------------------------------------- Note added at 2002-08-14 21:23:19 (GMT) -------------------------------------------------- Dear John, Please let me add here some information: 1. You wrote: \"Yes, sure, you will always find people whose grasp of their own language is imperfect. Furthermore and more importantly, the way you pronounce words in highly informal contexts (e.g. when buying fruit and veg down the market) is not always strictly \'high register\' - colloquial pronunciation can be very fuzzy. - I never buy fruits and vegs down the market. There is other thing that governs the pronuciation/articulation of \"h\". \"h\" is, as every linguist know, a glottal fricative and determined as semi-vowel, a voiced aspirate. Modern Ashkenazi (European) reading tradition ignores this (along with \"ain\" and \"aleph\"); however Sephardic (North-African) Jews and Israeli Arabs accent these phonemes, in a fashion which resembles Arabic. 2. You wrote: \"But when providing a translation in a formal context such as this, you need to transliterate it correctly.\" - I agree with this and with the fact that TV and radio network standard is to pronounce \"h\" and , as you can see, I added some addition according to your comment. Thank you. 3. You wrote: \"Finally, everyone I know articulates the \'h\' quite clearly.\" -Yes, John. I am quite sure you do articulate \"h\" (for example in words\' beginnings), but not in this particular phonologic environment (by phonologic environment I mean two similar vowels \"a\" that make the pronuciation of \"h\" here almost impossible, because of two consequential processes: assimilation and deletion.) Regards, Irina -------------------------------------------------- Note added at 2002-08-17 13:42:37 (GMT) -------------------------------------------------- Dear John, Now, when you are trying so hard to find contra-arguments to solid facts I gave you from contemporary books dealing with Modern Hebrew and its analysis (written by Hebrew native speakers) you say the word laafokh/lahafokh 100 times, wishing to hear this \"h\" - in such conditions I am sure you do articulate it even in this phonological environment (between to similar vowels \"a\", that hardly give you a possibility for aspiration required for the articulation of \"h\"). All linguistic data is allways accumulated from spontaneous speech, not when a speaker is aware of what should/shouldn\'t be articulated. As I said, in other words and in other phonologic environments the semi-vowel consonant \"h\" may be articulated due to other consonats that cause it to be articulated. Not in this word. In this word the situation is inverse. I am not going to explain here again any linguisically approved facts and repeat things I have already said before. The terms I use are LINGUISIC terms. The authors I mentioned are professors in Linguistics and major researchers of Modern Hebrew and Hebrew phonology (BTW, phonology is: \"The study of speech sounds in language or a language with reference to their distribution and patterning and to tacit rules governing pronunciation.\"), both native speakers. 2. Name German of the cosmonaut German Titov was given to him by his parents, mam and dad, not because Russians \"have great difficulty pronouncing \'h\' \". I am not going to give you a lecture here on norms and strategies of Russian transcription of names borrowed from other languages, on when these names have Russian \"G\" or \"X (kh)\". In any case, I do not understand what your \"German Titov\" example is good for in this discussion? - Russian alia does not pronounce this word as \"lagafokh\"... With best wishes, Irina -------------------------------------------------- Note added at 2002-08-18 09:14:37 (GMT) -------------------------------------------------- John, I could give here many professors\' \"THEORETICAL statements\", but I gave here statements made by professors who deal with and analyze spoken Modern Hebrew language. The data, used in such analyses, is accumulated by researchers who tape-recorded the speech of different speakers, and then analyzed it - made PRACTICAL work. Moreover, these researches contain data accumulated from MANY Hebrew language speakers (not only 3). I am sorry you are not familiar with the way linguistic researches are carried out, since you do not have linguistic background (or you just did not claim you have). BTW, as it can be seen from Sue Goldian ITA profile she has Hebrew as her second mother tongue language, exactly as I have. Finally, you live in UK, so let me guess, you do not have too many Hebrew speakers around you to argue about Modern Hebrew language spoken in Israel (BTW, Suzan lives in US, am I right?) You are trying to get things I say out of the context and trying to say that I am a fresh repatriate without ears, who has nothing but difficulties with Hebrew I am not such a person. I was sure there is no need to repeat things I already wrote before but, if you insist, here comes detailed explanation: 1. First of all, there are speakers, that do/do not articulate \'h\' regardless of their level of education. Just because of their origin - \"Modern Ashkenazi (European) reading tradition ignores this (along with \"ain\" and \"aleph\"); however Sephardic (North-African) Jews and Israeli Arabs accent these phonemes, in a fashion which resembles Arabic.\" If at least one parent in family articulates \'h\' (or any other sound) because of parent\'s origin, it may cause the child to articulate it too. 1.2 There is no surprise in the fact that teachers do articulate \'h\'. They speak slowly and make special accents on \"difficult\" sounds (difficult not only for Russian alia, but for majority of ex-Europeans). I already said before, \"the TV and radio network standard is to pronounciate \'h\' \". Both teachers (especially in primary school) and media (TV and radio) have the same purpose - to say things in a way they should be said (historically). Thus, if you/Sue/Suzan suit at least one of aforementioned criteria (I mean your/your parents origin or if you speak slowly) you may have the ability to articulate \'h\' even in this phonological environment (but please do me a favor - try to listen and check how others, not involved in our discussion HEBREW NATIVE SPEAKERS say this word, or any other word where the semi-vowel consonant \'h\' is surrounded by vowels (especially a, o or u the deep vowels) - for ex. the following words: אוהלים, משהו). Ask your Hebrew-speaking friends to say some sentences containing these words in their regular speech speed. SPONTANEOUSLY. Do not tell them to pay special attention to h. Let them say these words in a usual way they say them. Or even put these words in some sentence and ask your friends to repeat these sentences. Listen and be fair. 2. I never said your facts are \"fiction\", but I think you should not argue with linguistically approved facts. It looks like you think and try to say that some impudent repatriate is trying to teach you, NATIVE SPEAKER, how to say words in your mother tongue. I am trying to put your attention to contemporary Hebrew pronunciation. All facts I bring to this discussion are corroborated by my linguistic background and by everyday speech of Hebrew native speakers here in Israel. 3. You wrote: Irina is a Russian speaker, and surely she knows it is the case. This may colour her perception of the way \'h\' is pronounced in Hebrew by native speakers such as myself. I already explained this matter too: a. I understand your wish to enter this sound into this word, but please note (and there is nothing new in what I am going to say), native speakers, have difficulties to disconnect from written form of a word when they perfectly know how it looks. Exactly because of this matter, Native speakers are never involved in accumulation of phonological data. In particular, because of different ways of perception, I supported my answer with results of analyses of Modern Hebrew language. b. I never avoided the fact I am a Russian speaker. Along with this I already wrote I repatriated to Israel when I was a child. I finished here a school and university. I am proud I have Russian as my mother tongue and Hebrew as my second mother tongue, and I hear, speak and write both languages in my everyday life/work. Have a good day, Irina -------------------------------------------------- Note added at 2002-08-18 16:57:14 (GMT) -------------------------------------------------- All, You are really surprising me! While I am trying to bring facts proven by academic researches (I will repeat researches based on practical studies, not theoretical ones), which are based on data gathered among hundreds of people from different origins, ages, etc., you bring your personal experiences, your relatives, friends and pronunciation you hear over the phone. Please go and argue with those researches. You continue to bring my experience, as a Russian speaker, to this argument. Please do not. My statements are not only based on what I personally hear or talk, but rather on academic researches, which I have studied during my linguistic degree. I did not mention to express criticism of Sues proficiency in Hebrew and sorry if it seemed as such. I just wanted to express two things: 1. Those who do not live in Israel have rather limited access to contemporary israeli Hebrew, which is restricted (as you have proved) by friends, family etc. 2. I do not live in Israel for 34 years, as Sue does, but I live here more than half of my life and I am also fluent in both Hebrew and Russian. Regards, Irina. |
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