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rule of law vs. rule by law

Russian translation: "по букве закона" и "по духу закона"

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10:35 Jul 5, 2003
English to Russian translations [PRO]
Social Sciences - Government / Politics
English term or phrase: rule of law vs. rule by law
В одной фразе употребляются (и противопоставляются) три разных подхода к применению правовой системы в государстве: dictatorship of law, rule of law, and rule by law. Не поможете ли подобрать хорошие, выразительные варианты для двух последних из этих выражений. Dictatorship of law труда не представляет, но требуется найти хорошее и ясное разграничение между rule of law и rule by law.

Контекст: речь идет о становлении демократии в пост-коммунистических странах

A theme running through all of these examples is the selective application of the legal norms: it is no accident that X intially spoke of dicatorship of law rather than _rule of law_. While the rhetoric has changed - X has learned to avoid some unfortunate phrases - the practice often is _rule by law_ : legal and administrative sanctions are applied arbitrarily... etc.
Alya
Russian Federation
Local time: 17:16
Russian translation:"по букве закона" и "по духу закона"
Explanation:
Такое вот предположение, сейчас подтверждений поищем.

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Note added at 2003-07-05 10:53:44 (GMT)
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Вот одно пояснение:

http://books.cambridge.org/0521532663.htm

This book addresses why governments sometimes follow the law and other times choose to evade the law. The traditional answer of jurists has been that laws have an autonomous causal efficacy: law rules when actions follow anterior norms; the relation between laws and actions is one of obedience, obligation, or compliance. Contrary to this conception, the authors defend a positive interpretation where the rule of law results from the strategic choices of relevant actors. Rule of law is just one possible outcome in which political actors process their conflicts using whatever resources they can muster: only when these actors seek to resolve their conflicts by recourse to la, does law rule. What distinguishes ‘RULE-OF-LAW’ as an institutional equilibrium from ‘RULE-BY-LAW’ is the distribution of power. The former emerges when no one group is strong enough to dominate the others and when the many use institutions to promote their interest.

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Note added at 2003-07-05 10:59:37 (GMT)
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И вот еще:

http://www.angelfire.com/space/pls/Docs/Inside_Out_1/Rule_of...

The rule of law does not mean rule by law: that is, so long as there is a law on the subject the rule of law is operating. It does not mean the law of the ruler. Nor is it equivalent to “law and order”.

A clue to its meaning would be given by the addition of one word to the phrase: “the just rule of law”. ... The rule of law is both normative and descriptive: it is a universal ideal; it is a restraint on arbitrary power. It is extremely difficult to define comprehensively. The International Commission of Jurists (ICJ) in 1959 described two ideals underlying the concept of the Rule of Law:

* All power in the state should be derived from and exercised in accordance with the law.

* The law itself must be based upon respect for the supreme value of human personality.

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Note added at 2003-07-05 11:02:06 (GMT)
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Ссылок много, причем очень часто именно в противопоставлении. Громоздить не стану, но вывод действительно такой:

rule by law -- это не очень демократичная система, когда слепо следуют \"сухой букве\", да и \"букву\" это выбирают частенько по личному желанию и произволу.

rule of law -- это именно демократическая система, когда законы используются во благо людям. Последняя ссылка, которую я дал, дает как раз перечисление всех принципов этой \"идеальной системы\".

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Note added at 2003-07-05 11:04:07 (GMT)
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И еще напоследок интересное описание:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/issue_novdec_2002/gns3.html

In his introduction, Holmes offers a crucial distinction between two types of legal systems: rule by law and rule of law. Under the former, a small elite uses laws “to protect and consolidate its privileges and power”; under the latter, power in society is sufficiently dispersed to allow many groups and people “to use law to pursue their goals and safeguard their assets to some extent.” Today, Russia is governed by the rule-by-law model. The success of Putin’s judicial reform will be judged by how much closer it brings the country to a rule-of-law system.



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Note added at 2003-07-05 11:13:49 (GMT)
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Вот ! А может чуть ли не в лоб: \"власть закона\" vs \"закон власти\" ? Надо подумать, но, вроде бы, вписывается довольно неплохо в смысл...

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Note added at 2003-07-05 11:16:39 (GMT)
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Да, ВЛАСТЬ ЗАКОНА и ЗАКОН ВЛАСТИ.
Selected response from:

Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 17:16
Grading comment
К сожалению, ни один ответ меня не удовлетворил полностью. Большинство, как ни грустно, ограничилось поверхностным объяснением разницы между двумя *понятиями*, но не дали подходящих версий *перевода*, которые могли бы органично и понятно лечь в переводимый текст. Спасибо за попытки; особое спасибо Кириллу за подборку ссылок по предмету обсуждения.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
3 +2"по букве закона" и "по духу закона"
Kirill Semenov
5править на основе (решать на основе права )/////// принцып господства права,правовая нормаxxxga5
4 +1Верховенство права и право по верховенствуsvogin
4"власть закона" vs "власть при помощи закона"xxxVera Fluhr
4правит закон и правят по закону
Yuri Smirnov
4***xxxOleg Pashuk
3dictatorchip of law and rule of law is the in one aspect why
Umutay Midinova
3for rule of law - законность, установление законности
Umutay Midinova
3rule of law - власть закона; rule by law - правопорядок
Umutay Midinova


Discussion entries: 9





  

Answers


5 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
правит закон и правят по закону


Explanation:
-

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Note added at 7 mins (2003-07-05 10:43:49 GMT)
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В этой ситуации правит уже не личность, а Закон. ... только
служат гражданам и Закону. ...
www.md.mos.ru/conf/ten/anketa.htm

Yuri Smirnov
Local time: 17:16
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in BelarusianBelarusian, Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in category: 64
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

10 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
Верховенство права и право по верховенству


Explanation:
Rule of law чаще всего переводится как верховенство права

Что касается rule by law, возможно следует указать право по верховенству, то бишь кто выше, тот у обладает преобладающим правом применять законы в своих целях.

svogin
Local time: 17:16
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  xxxga5: 1 super vtoroe ne ochen
32 mins
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12 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
"по букве закона" и "по духу закона"


Explanation:
Такое вот предположение, сейчас подтверждений поищем.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-07-05 10:53:44 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Вот одно пояснение:

http://books.cambridge.org/0521532663.htm

This book addresses why governments sometimes follow the law and other times choose to evade the law. The traditional answer of jurists has been that laws have an autonomous causal efficacy: law rules when actions follow anterior norms; the relation between laws and actions is one of obedience, obligation, or compliance. Contrary to this conception, the authors defend a positive interpretation where the rule of law results from the strategic choices of relevant actors. Rule of law is just one possible outcome in which political actors process their conflicts using whatever resources they can muster: only when these actors seek to resolve their conflicts by recourse to la, does law rule. What distinguishes ‘RULE-OF-LAW’ as an institutional equilibrium from ‘RULE-BY-LAW’ is the distribution of power. The former emerges when no one group is strong enough to dominate the others and when the many use institutions to promote their interest.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-07-05 10:59:37 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

И вот еще:

http://www.angelfire.com/space/pls/Docs/Inside_Out_1/Rule_of...

The rule of law does not mean rule by law: that is, so long as there is a law on the subject the rule of law is operating. It does not mean the law of the ruler. Nor is it equivalent to “law and order”.

A clue to its meaning would be given by the addition of one word to the phrase: “the just rule of law”. ... The rule of law is both normative and descriptive: it is a universal ideal; it is a restraint on arbitrary power. It is extremely difficult to define comprehensively. The International Commission of Jurists (ICJ) in 1959 described two ideals underlying the concept of the Rule of Law:

* All power in the state should be derived from and exercised in accordance with the law.

* The law itself must be based upon respect for the supreme value of human personality.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-07-05 11:02:06 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------



Ссылок много, причем очень часто именно в противопоставлении. Громоздить не стану, но вывод действительно такой:

rule by law -- это не очень демократичная система, когда слепо следуют \"сухой букве\", да и \"букву\" это выбирают частенько по личному желанию и произволу.

rule of law -- это именно демократическая система, когда законы используются во благо людям. Последняя ссылка, которую я дал, дает как раз перечисление всех принципов этой \"идеальной системы\".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-07-05 11:04:07 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------



И еще напоследок интересное описание:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/issue_novdec_2002/gns3.html

In his introduction, Holmes offers a crucial distinction between two types of legal systems: rule by law and rule of law. Under the former, a small elite uses laws “to protect and consolidate its privileges and power”; under the latter, power in society is sufficiently dispersed to allow many groups and people “to use law to pursue their goals and safeguard their assets to some extent.” Today, Russia is governed by the rule-by-law model. The success of Putin’s judicial reform will be judged by how much closer it brings the country to a rule-of-law system.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-07-05 11:13:49 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Вот ! А может чуть ли не в лоб: \"власть закона\" vs \"закон власти\" ? Надо подумать, но, вроде бы, вписывается довольно неплохо в смысл...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-07-05 11:16:39 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Да, ВЛАСТЬ ЗАКОНА и ЗАКОН ВЛАСТИ.

Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 17:16
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in category: 227
5 corroborated select projects
in this pair and field What is ProZ.com Project History(SM)?
Grading comment
К сожалению, ни один ответ меня не удовлетворил полностью. Большинство, как ни грустно, ограничилось поверхностным объяснением разницы между двумя *понятиями*, но не дали подходящих версий *перевода*, которые могли бы органично и понятно лечь в переводимый текст. Спасибо за попытки; особое спасибо Кириллу за подборку ссылок по предмету обсуждения.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  xxxga5
11 mins
  -> спасибо :)

agree  Alexander Demyanov: власть закона - хорошо; "закон власти" - как-то неуютно (языково). М.б. "закон - инструмент власти"?
4 hrs
  -> да, похоже, что да.... Особенно с учетом рассуждений Аскера.
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14 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
rule of law - власть закона; rule by law - правопорядок


Explanation:
первое выражение часто встречается в речи американских политических деятелей, когда они ратуют за установление rule of law в странах третьего мира - сами знаете в каких.

I hope to be helpful

Umutay Midinova
Kyrgyzstan
Local time: 20:16
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian
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17 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
править на основе (решать на основе права )/////// принцып господства права,правовая норма


Explanation:
212

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Note added at 2003-07-05 11:14:02 (GMT)
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rule of law = governing according to the law of the land


rule by law = to govern by a legal mandate


xxxga5
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in UkrainianUkrainian, Native in RussianRussian
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28 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
for rule of law - законность, установление законности


Explanation:
Очевидно вы использовали власть закона для rule of law, в таком разе, есть предложение использовать для rule of law - законность, восстановление законности

Umutay Midinova
Kyrgyzstan
Local time: 20:16
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

37 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
"власть закона" vs "власть при помощи закона"


Explanation:
"закон правит людьми" vs "закон служит тому, кто правит людьми".

Аля,
по-моему здесь противопоставляется
а) правовое государство, где закон правит и он превыше всего
и
б) общество где законы используются чтоб управлять, типа "закон что дышло"

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Note added at 2003-07-05 11:19:03 (GMT)
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Т.е. если смотреть чисто синтаксически, во фразе
то в первом случае Закон - это подлежащее . Закон правит

А во втором случае Закон - это дополнение, кто-то правит при помощи закона.

Веник метет VS веником метут
Понимаете разницу?

xxxVera Fluhr
Local time: 16:16
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian, Native in FrenchFrench
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6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
***


Explanation:
rule of law = правовая норма / закон;
(to) rule by law = решать на основе права /закона

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Note added at 2003-07-05 17:01:42 (GMT)
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Seems simple...

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Note added at 2003-07-05 17:02:28 (GMT)
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of vs. by

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Note added at 2003-07-05 17:23:32 (GMT)
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OR:
rule of law = правовая норма / закон;

rule by law = решение на основе права /закона

xxxOleg Pashuk
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22 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
dictatorchip of law and rule of law is the in one aspect why


Explanation:
the author prefer it - the first is more exspressive; in the given context - legal and administrative sanctions are applied arbitrarily - there is distinction between rule of law and rule by law - though in the dictionary the meaning is all the same: maybe the author used rule by law instead of rule by decree - править на основе чрезвычайных полноиочий which is more appropiate in the context

Umutay Midinova
Kyrgyzstan
Local time: 20:16
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian
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