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Welcome, John the Russian!

Russian translation: Ivan Russkiy

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
English term or phrase:John the Russian
Russian translation:Ivan Russkiy
Entered by: Druzz

05:36 Jul 4, 2003
English to Russian translations [PRO]
Social Sciences - History
English term or phrase: Welcome, John the Russian!
Welcome, John the Russian!
Evandro da Nobrega
Добро пожаловать, Иоанн Русский !
Explanation:
John the Russian is most probably St. John the Russian^

St. John was born in the south of Russia of pious Orthodox parents. He was still young when, in 1711, he took part in the battle against the Turks. Sharing the unhappy fate of many other Russian soldiers, the Saint was captured and sold as a slave to a Turkish cavalry commander from the village of Procopion near Caesarea in Asia Minor...

Follow the link to learn more:

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-07-04 05:42:58 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

And here is his legend in Russian:

http://www.ioannrus.orthodoxy.ru/Zhitie/index.htm
Selected response from:

Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 18:36
Grading comment
Kiril refers “Ioann”, an old Slavic form of Ivan (John)
because he thought I was speaking about St. John the Russian. But he, Kiril, was the solely person to put the “adjective” AFTER the name (we are speaking about
“Ivan the Russian” and not “the Russian Ivan [or John]”. Please, see the following additional explanation:
I think the correct translation for “Welcome, Ivan the Russian!” could be “Zdorovo, Ivan Russkiy!”,
or “Dobro pojalovath, Ivan Russkiy!”
because the expression “Ivan the Terrible” is always translated as “Ivan Grozny”, and not “grozniy Ivan”.
In both cases, we have an “appositive”, not an adjective. My trouble was to know if the appositive (Ivan the Russian) must be put in any declension case, as it occurs in Latin “vocative”. Is there such a declension case “vocative” in Russian, too?
But thank you very much for each of the other answerers!
This is a fine site!

Evandro da Nobrega,
writer, journalist, editor,
from Brazil

4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +2Добро пожаловать, Иоанн Русский !
Kirill Semenov
4 +1Добро пожаловать/Приходи, Русский Джон/ Иван!
Vera Fluhr (X)
4 +1some more comments
Kirill Semenov
5one more comment
Elena Ivaniushina
3Здорово, русский Ваня!
Yuri Smirnov


Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


3 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
Добро пожаловать, Иоанн Русский !


Explanation:
John the Russian is most probably St. John the Russian^

St. John was born in the south of Russia of pious Orthodox parents. He was still young when, in 1711, he took part in the battle against the Turks. Sharing the unhappy fate of many other Russian soldiers, the Saint was captured and sold as a slave to a Turkish cavalry commander from the village of Procopion near Caesarea in Asia Minor...

Follow the link to learn more:

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-07-04 05:42:58 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

And here is his legend in Russian:

http://www.ioannrus.orthodoxy.ru/Zhitie/index.htm


    Reference: http://www.roca.org/OA/39/39g.htm
Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 18:36
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in category: 153
1 corroborated select project
in this pair and field What is ProZ.com Project History(SM)?
Grading comment
Kiril refers “Ioann”, an old Slavic form of Ivan (John)
because he thought I was speaking about St. John the Russian. But he, Kiril, was the solely person to put the “adjective” AFTER the name (we are speaking about
“Ivan the Russian” and not “the Russian Ivan [or John]”. Please, see the following additional explanation:
I think the correct translation for “Welcome, Ivan the Russian!” could be “Zdorovo, Ivan Russkiy!”,
or “Dobro pojalovath, Ivan Russkiy!”
because the expression “Ivan the Terrible” is always translated as “Ivan Grozny”, and not “grozniy Ivan”.
In both cases, we have an “appositive”, not an adjective. My trouble was to know if the appositive (Ivan the Russian) must be put in any declension case, as it occurs in Latin “vocative”. Is there such a declension case “vocative” in Russian, too?
But thank you very much for each of the other answerers!
This is a fine site!

Evandro da Nobrega,
writer, journalist, editor,
from Brazil

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Vladimir Dubisskiy: possible
43 mins
  -> судя по Гуголу...
agree  Jarema
12 hrs
  -> спасибо :)
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18 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
Здорово, русский Ваня!


Explanation:
А мне почему-то так подумалось.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 mins (2003-07-04 05:55:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Здорово, русский Иван!

Yuri Smirnov
Local time: 18:36
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in BelarusianBelarusian, Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in category: 12

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Kirill Semenov: Юра, мне тоже так подумалось, но ни одного примера нет, только Иоанн.
6 mins
  -> Спасибо. Я без претензий. Троечку себе поставил. Контекст нас рассудит.
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14 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
Добро пожаловать/Приходи, Русский Джон/ Иван!


Explanation:
Кирилл правильно сказал: примеров с John the Russian, почти нет. Но зато есть персонажи анекдотов - Ivan the Russian и John the American.
Откуда мы знаем, откуда Аскер взял эту фразу? Может быть это из анекдотов? По-моему, при недостатке информации надо перевести максимально близко, чтоб не обмишулиться ненароком.

Вот например, анекдот с этими персонажами:

I said I thought the paradoxes might give a certain freedom. "Yes, we have an enormous freedom," he said (and to this day I don't know if he was making fun of me). "There's something unhealthy about this life, of course, but I've grown so accustomed to it that I could probably never get used to the West. Speaking of freedom, have you heard about John the American and Ivan the Russian? John says: 'You don't have freedom. I can mount my horse, ride up to the White House and call the president an idiot!' 'That's nothing,' Ivan replies, 'where I come from, they call your president an idiot in the newspapers! Listen to the freedom we have: Can you come late for work whenever you want?' John is shocked: 'Of course not!' 'Can you sit at work without doing a thing for days? Can you go on a binge for weeks, without even notifying your boss...?'"
http://www.fsnielsen.com/txt/rus/otec-petr_eng.htm


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-07-04 20:11:08 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Может быть, здесь нарочно переставили местами - именно \"Русский + Джон\", и в этом весь юмор?




    Reference: http://www.fsnielsen.com/txt/rus/otec-petr_eng.htm
Vera Fluhr (X)
Local time: 17:36
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian, Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Sergey Strakhov: Оно самое
2 mins
  -> спасибо!
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

1 day 2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
some more comments


Explanation:
I'm still not sure what is the context you need the phrase for, but here are some more comments on your analysis.

1) "Иван Русский" sounds as a personal name, so you may but the adjective after "Иван" only in the case you're refering to a specific person -- a historical person or, say, a character of a book.

2) If you need a generalizing name for an unknown person who typifies a Russian man, you should use "русский Иван" (without capitalizing the first letter in "русский"!) or "русский Ваня" (more suited for a young guy). These expressions are close to English "average Joe" and are quite commonly used in Russian.

For instance, in the context of WWII, "русский Иван" was used when refering to any `Russian soldier'. Also, Nazist soldiers were called in Russian "гансы" or "фрицы" -- the same idea, using the most common German names to denote any soldier in general.

I hope it helps.

By the way, if you will ask questions on the site in future, please, do provide more context at once. The more additional information you give the higher the chances to get the correct and precise answer. As for "руссий Иван", the way you put your question "John the Russian" was really confusing, since you should probably write "Russian Ivan" or something like this. Through the Web, I found no example when they use "John the Russian" refering to an average Russian man, soldier, etc.

Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 18:36
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in category: 153
1 corroborated select project
in this pair and field What is ProZ.com Project History(SM)?

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Elena Ivaniushina: Correct. The expression "Ivan the Russian" points at just one specific person (a ruler, for example, or a saint), not at a general group of people denoted by their nationality and personified in a general image
2 hrs
  -> exactly ! putting the adjective after the name.makes `Russian' a part of the entire proper name.
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1 day 4 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
one more comment


Explanation:
In the tradition of translating and transliterating the Russian names, "John" would point at a historical person; this is a common way to show the "high", archaic style of narration. "Ivan" would refer to a casual modern style.

So, if you wanted to get "russkyi Ivan", it would be "Russian Ivan", and NOT "Russian John" : this sounds really weird for a Russian ear. The only example which I can think about with a "Russian John" can only possibly refer to an American or an Englishman who has lived in Russia for such a long time that almost became naturalised (and this is a rare occasion).

Elena Ivaniushina
Russian Federation
Local time: 18:36
Native speaker of: Russian
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