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French: « Une composition d’ensemble au 17e siècle unissant le château, les jardins....

English translation: A 17th century bird's eye view...[assuming that we are talking about the drawing/engraving]







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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:« Une composition d’ensemble au 17e siècle unissant le château, les jardins....
English translation:A 17th century bird's eye view...[assuming that we are talking about the drawing/engraving]
Entered by:Christopher Crockett
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5:43pm Jul 5, 2006Login or register (free) for more options.
French to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Architecture
French term or phrase: « Une composition d’ensemble au 17e siècle unissant le château, les jardins....
This is for a museum slide show describing the history of the Paris region. This sentence will be shown on-screen along with overhead views of the Versailles, Meudon, Vaux-le-Vicomte and Sceaux royal estates. My problem is the "composition d'ensemble" part. I take it that they mean these royal estates were "harmonious ensembles" grouping together the castle, garden and park. Any insight or ideas would be appreciated.
1015
France
Clarification request(s) and response
Najib Aloui: 9:11pm Jul 5, 2006: Bonsoir stestephe. Is the "harmonious composition" in the chateau landscape itself or in the film?
1015: 2:26pm Jul 6, 2006: In the chateau landscape - Hi, Thanks for your answer. The "harmonious composition" is in the chateau landscape itself. The idea being that chateau, garden and park form one "harmonious composition/ ensemble".

A 17th century bird's eye view...
Explanation:
Sometimes hyphenated: bird's-eye view.

Note: it is best not to use "castle" for "château", in English. Check the Kudoz archives for numerous discussions of this problem.

In general, the English "castle" refers to a *fortified* structure or complex; while what you have here is a massive country house, mansion or palace, which can be referred to in English as a "chateau" (with or without the circumflex accent on the "a").

Versailles, is often referred to as "the palace of Versailles", but this would only be appropriate for royal residences of a certain type, and the other royal "estates" in your list are definitely "chateaux".

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Note added at 20 mins (2006-07-05 18:04:26 GMT)
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A "Bird's eye view" is generally understood to be rather comprehensive.

"A 17th c. bird's eye view of the chateau, gardens, etc."

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Note added at 23 mins (2006-07-05 18:07:20 GMT)
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I am assuming that what you have before your eyes looks something like this:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/ConsulterElementNum?O=IFN-7...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 hrs (2006-07-06 15:04:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Taking into account 1015's response to ganemo's question, I'm not sure how I'd describe the "composition d’ensemble" in this context.

Generally speaking, a painting (or even a sculpture) can have a "composition", but what we have here is an elaborately planned "estate", chateau, gardens, woodlands, all conceived as a landscape "ensemble" --but "ensemble" is not really a word which has sufficient currency in common English to be used here, I'm afraid.

Mmmm....

How about something like :

"Each of these estates [Versailles, Meudon, etc.] is characterised by the execution of an overall, comprehensive landscaped plan (so characteristic of the 17th century) which integrated the various elements of chateau, gardens, woods, [etc.]..."

Admittedly, this is a bit more than your text says, but I think that this is one of those cases where French can pack quite a lot more into a few words than can English.
Selected response from:

Christopher Crockett
United States
Note from asker to answerer
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +4A 17th century bird's eye view...
Christopher Crockett
3 +3a 17th century harmonious composition uniting castle, garden and parkNajib Aloui
5 +1A 17th century ensemble composition....Andrew Bruch
4a 17th C. landscaped setting incorporating the castle and surrounding gardensFrancis Marche
2a 17th century view including the ...
suezen


  

Answers

6 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
a 17th century view including the ...

Explanation:
perhaps the best would be to simplify ...

suezen
France
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 67
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
A 17th century ensemble composition....

Explanation:
I think sometimes we have a tendency to want to veer away from words that seem too French in our translations.

Andrew Bruch
United States
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree Olga V: Or just "a 17th century ensemble...". You're right, the word "ensemble" shouldn't be ignored since it's a key word in the sentence.
2 hrs
  -> thanks!

neutral Christopher Crockett: Certainly the right idea, but I don't think I'd use the term "composition" to apply to a large, planned estate.
19 hrs
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +3
a 17th century harmonious composition uniting castle, garden and park

Explanation:
...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2006-07-05 21:24:54 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

writeway , it's not the first thing you don't see , just like all of us , read carefully and you'll see..."SEVENTEETH century ensemble composition" uniting not views but castle and garden...Read also asker when she says "these royal estates were harmonious ensembles"...I am not inventing, writeway, there must be something wrong with your glasses...

Najib Aloui
Algeria
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree Christopher Crockett: If it is, indeed, "the thing viewed" and not the type of view being used which is meant, then you are right.
11 mins
  -> Thank you Christopher , let's ask asker about "viewer vs thing viewed"...

agree Jeffrey Lewis: Chris' gesture is very galant, no joke, and one I intend to imitate
1 hr
  -> thank you Jeffrey , sincere search for excellence should be our sole motive ...Points,vanity and money must be tamed...

agree juliebarba
2 hrs
  -> Thank you Julie...
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16 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +4
A 17th century bird's eye view...

Explanation:
Sometimes hyphenated: bird's-eye view.

Note: it is best not to use "castle" for "château", in English. Check the Kudoz archives for numerous discussions of this problem.

In general, the English "castle" refers to a *fortified* structure or complex; while what you have here is a massive country house, mansion or palace, which can be referred to in English as a "chateau" (with or without the circumflex accent on the "a").

Versailles, is often referred to as "the palace of Versailles", but this would only be appropriate for royal residences of a certain type, and the other royal "estates" in your list are definitely "chateaux".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 mins (2006-07-05 18:04:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

A "Bird's eye view" is generally understood to be rather comprehensive.

"A 17th c. bird's eye view of the chateau, gardens, etc."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 23 mins (2006-07-05 18:07:20 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I am assuming that what you have before your eyes looks something like this:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/ConsulterElementNum?O=IFN-7...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 hrs (2006-07-06 15:04:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Taking into account 1015's response to ganemo's question, I'm not sure how I'd describe the "composition d’ensemble" in this context.

Generally speaking, a painting (or even a sculpture) can have a "composition", but what we have here is an elaborately planned "estate", chateau, gardens, woodlands, all conceived as a landscape "ensemble" --but "ensemble" is not really a word which has sufficient currency in common English to be used here, I'm afraid.

Mmmm....

How about something like :

"Each of these estates [Versailles, Meudon, etc.] is characterised by the execution of an overall, comprehensive landscaped plan (so characteristic of the 17th century) which integrated the various elements of chateau, gardens, woods, [etc.]..."

Admittedly, this is a bit more than your text says, but I think that this is one of those cases where French can pack quite a lot more into a few words than can English.

Christopher Crockett
United States
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 43
Note from asker to answerer
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree Dr Sue Levy: or "elevated view" (view from above) - agree 100% about using chateau in English
30 mins
  -> Yes, either of those will do as well. I was just trying to be more ornothographically colorful. Thanks, Sue.

neutral Najib Aloui: a bird's eye may view a disarticulated landscape ...What's to be described, I think, is not the viewer but the thing viewed
49 mins
  -> You could well be right. This was actually my first thought, but the text given is not clear whether or not we are talking about the one or the other. Thanks, ganemo.

agree French Foodie
59 mins
  -> Alas, it looks like the description applies to the estate, not the view of it. Thanks anyway, Mara.

agree Rio Akasaka: I think this renders it easiest to comprehend.
2 hrs
  -> Alas, it looks like the description applies to the estate, not the view of it. Thanks anyway, Rio.

agree writeaway: I think this is fine. since it's for a slide show, don't see what the objection/neutral really is/well now we know. it does show the need for enough context from the start
3 hrs
  -> Alas, it looks like the description applies to the estate, not the view of it. Thanks anyway, write./ Yes, one can never have too much context. Thanks again.
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1 day16 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
a 17th C. landscaped setting incorporating the castle and surrounding gardens

Explanation:
as in:

The Beauchief Hotel - a Corus hotel, Sheffield, England, UK ...
A recently refurbished, traditional hotel in **a landscaped setting **just three miles from the centre of Sheffield in the affluent district of Dore. ...

www.laterooms.com/fr/hotel-reservations/2133_beauchief-hote... - 40k -

or like

... **design in a landscaped setting, incorporating screen planting**, would create an interesting and attractive environment in harmony with its surroundings. ...
www.warwickshire.gov.uk/.../$FILE/

a possible alternative: *the château and gardens composing a 17th C. landscape unit...*

as in
The general boundaries of the HP-O District have been drawn and adopted by the Town
Council so as to include all lands closely related to and bearing upon the character of the
historic district, thus **composing a landscape unit** and affording transitional regulations
needed to control potentially adverse and conflicting environmental influences.

note : ensemble (F) = a set (E)


Francis Marche
France
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench, Native in EnglishEnglish
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