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The asker opted for community grading. The question was closed on 2011-10-01 08:54:09 based on peer agreement (or, if there were too few peer comments, asker preference.)
French to English translations [PRO] Architecture / ecclesiatical architecture
French term or phrase:cul de lampe
"Tous les doubleaux et diagonaux retombent sur des culs de lampes, en sorte que les murs ne sont recoupés par aucun pilastre"
This is part of a description (I imagine taken by a non specialist from some website or other) of the church of N/Dame de Pitié in Puissalicon (Languedoc). I found "cross-springs" for "doubleaux" - but that's about all ! Christopher, are you out there somewhere I wonder ??
it's always a quaderary to know how far one should go to Dumb Something Down (since, as Mark Twain would say, "there's no bottom on that line").
And, as you correctly note, "I doubt many native English speakers know what a 'corbel' is to start with!"
So, we are left with, "the arch dealies of the roof thingies fall on little stone thingies which stick out of the wall, rather than on dealies of stone coming up from the floor."
when Big Grant isn't driving us all to the region, is that it might be an idea to say " 'cul-de-lampe' corbel (or bracket) " to help the unedjercated torist. Hard to know, though, how much one should dumb something like this down - if it should be dumbed down at all - , especially since not only are few English-speaking tourists experts in mediaeval architecture, but also many are not native English speakers to start with. I doubt many native English speakers know what a "corbel" is to start with!
but it is rather discouraging to have an answer picked which --clearly and obviously-- simply *cannot* be correct. (That's almost as discouraging as not being able, myself, to come up with the correct answer.)
But, with this question --unlike the last of yours-- we're dealing with something quite a bit simpler.
Even if we don't have a pic --and a google/images turns up no interior shots of the Puissalicon church.
But that's clearly a 12th c. tower and the church in question is 14th c.
I'd say --being unencumbered by any actual knowledge of the architecture of the area-- that we're dealing with true culs-de-lamp which receive both the "doubleaux" (wall arches of the vaults) and the "diagonaux" (ribs), thus leaving the nave walls free from pilasters.
That being said, Hilary, I definitely think that the least you could do would be to get us a big grant so that we could actually go to the region in question to have a thoroughly professional look-see for ourselves.
I quite understand how this infuriates you - what I'm attempting to do is translate about a dozen suggested itineraries for tourists wanting to visit local villages, churches, castles, etc. These documents were compiled by someone working for a short time at the tourist office, who obviously just tried to find existing descriptions on the village websites and then pasted them on. I've just been asked to put them into English and am trying to do it in as simple a way as possible while not being familiar with any of these terms, whether in Fr or Ang. Unfortunately there is no way I can take a couple of months off work to take a course in church architecture and then go and personally visit all these churches. C'est comme ça malheureusement.
saying something like "corbels in the shape of culs-de-lamp" --though the common groundlings, bumpkins and hoi poloi might still object to the E-lightism, I suppose.
The point being that it is the *shape* of the element which is a primary determinant of whether or not to call it a c-d-l, not just its (structural) function. Though I did say below that I still consider this
or presumption about this being copied by some non-specialist is interesting. Who is the document intended for? Does he intend to blind people with science, or does he assume (potentially) that because he doesn't know what this means, others will? If your text is accompanied by a glossary, all well and good, but it infuriates me, as a tourist, to find supposedly helpful guide literature full of these esoteric terms with no indication of what they actually refer to. The English do it too, but it is particularly prevalent in France, I feel, an elitist culture that actively seeks to keep the ignorant ignorant while supposedly educating them.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 12 mins (2011-09-27 12:22:24 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
"A cul-de-lampe is a kind of bracket-corbel supporting a vault; the term is also used for a corbel with a tapering base" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corbel
"Similarly, the French refer to a corbel as corbeau (a crow) or as cul-de-lampe, Italians as mensola, the Germans as Kragstein." http://corbel.askdefine.com/
Catharine Cellier-Smart Local time: 20:03 Works in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 16
Notes to answerer
Asker: thank you very much, all your answers are so helpful
Explanation: Not normally translated. The term appears in all my English architecture dictionaries. Usually hyphenated.
It refers to two different but similar things:
1. A pendant ornament shaped like a pyramid or cone
2. A corbel formed like a half-cone
(Oxford Dictionary of Architecture)
Gilla Evans Local time: 17:03 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 67
Grading comment
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Explanation: The term has entered into English and can be found in most larger English dictionaries.
Though Catherine's answer is technically correct, you will find the original used in many English sources (if written by knowledgeable folks, not Innernet pilferers) .
Definitely *not* "cross-springs", which term I've never, ever seen (even on Innernet sights) and have no idea what kind of animals those might be.
Nor "doubleaux" --which has a very, very different meaning entirely.
Though one might say that the [wall] "doubleaux" (the outer arches of the vault webbing) fall upon culs-de-lampe (rather than, say, pilasters).
Generally speaking, I would venture that all culs-de-lampe are corbels, but not all corbels are culs-de-lampe.
A corbel can be as little as an unarticulated, simple stone projecting slightly from the wall (on which a vault falls or which serves as the support for something, a wall pilaster or even a statue).
A cul-de-lamp is much more of an ornamental --as well, of course, as a structural-- feature, as the OED (below)notes, usually "of an inverted conical form."
This "cone" may be, however, quite elaborately ornamental --with multiple moldings or sometimes even elaborate foliate or figurative elements. I'll try and find some examples and pics shortly.
Here's the OED (note the plural form in the instances of use):
Archit. An ornamental support of inverted conical form; a pendant of the same form.
1728 E. Chambers Cycl., Cul de Lamp, a French Term‥used in Architecture for several Decorations, both of Masonry and Joinery, found in Vaults and Ceilings, to finish the bottom of Works, and wreath'd somewhat in manner of a Testudo.
1833 J. Dallaway Disc. Archit. Eng. (Stanf.) 94 The roof has several pendents (culs de lampe).
2. Printing. An ornament used to fill up a blank space in a page, as at the end of a chapter when the matter stops short of the bottom.
1819 Scott Bride of Lammermoor i, in Tales of my Landlord 3rd Ser. I. 24 An ornamented and illustrated edition, with heads, vignettes, and culs de lampe.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 hr (2011-09-27 13:13:45 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Christopher Crockett Local time: 12:03 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 71
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thank you once again Christopher - I am overwhelmed ! as I've never 'mis les pieds' in Puissalicon's church, I don't know exactly what these particular culs de lampe look like, but have found what must be the french text on www.puissalicon.com/eglise with a photo ...
The translation workplace 
peer agreement (net): +2
