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French to English translations [PRO] Art/Literary - Architecture / Religious Architecture
French term or phrase:potale
It's a Belgian French term, I know what it is, see: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potale or do a Google images search for 'potale'. Anyone know the proper term for this in English? Statue niche?
To me this is the most helpful and most pleasant KudoZ discussion I've ever had the pleasure of taking part in. They can be so dry and sadly occasionally an opportunity for people to bicker.
said the joker to the thief (Bob Dylan).
Where's this Support Request button?
And what is the final answer to be: statuary niche by CC? Which I agreed with.
The "system" definitely needs some mechanism by which errors can be corrected --presumably the terms which go into the glossary are actually used later by other translators at work on other projects, and having major errors in the glossary is akin to the Blind leading the Blind, into the Ditch.
There was nothing "wrong" with Kashew's answer --at the time that it was proposed. It was only by the beneficial process of extended discussion that we --collectively-- were able to refine what it was that we were talking about, using this difficult, multifaceted term.
That is as it should be --the "system" worked.
Looking again at that pic you posted, Lisa, and in view of your constraints of space, I believe that you should try to work "shrine" in there, somewhere --what you have is definitely a "saint's/holy/statuary shrine" (or, if extreme brevity is really demanded, just a "shrine") in that garden or park.
In which case Words can mean whatever The Red Queen says they mean, except for those architectural elements which are "shallow ornamental recesses or hollows set into a wall, usually for the purpose of containing a statue or other decorative object."
Which *some* folks stubbornly persist in calling "niches."
"A shallow ornamental recess or hollow set into a wall, usually for the purpose of containing a statue or other decorative object."
"Etymology: < French niche: **recess** for a statue (1395 in Middle French)"
What you've got on the Wikipedia page might pass muster for a "niche" in [modern] French (though I doubt it --the guy that wrote that doesn't know what to call it, either), but that projecting, ornamental bit of "micro architecture" is definitely not called a "niche" in the Queen's English.
A "niche" cannot, by its very nature, project from a wall.
Now, as to what it *is* called ... well, that's a different matter.
If it's a specifically Walloon concept, why don't you just leave it in French with a few words of explanation in brackets? It's like "château", which you wouldn't translate.
pettiefleur United Kingdom Local time: 17:04 Works in field Native speaker of: French
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thank you Pettiefleur. I appreciate your help, it has been very difficult to select an answer.
Asker: Thanks very much indeed for your suggestion and research. Apologies, I thought I'd closed this question ages ago. I wish I could award points to everyone as all were helpful, one just led me slightly closer to the term I finally chose. Thank you again!
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 2 heures (2011-10-28 18:07:58 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Has anybody read the asker's sub-category : Religious Architecture?
kashew France Local time: 18:04 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 57
Grading comment
Thank you :)
Notes to answerer
Asker: Really? Sounds like something Batman would say! Better than anything I've come up with so far though.
Asker: Thanks very much your contribution kashew.
Asker: Thanks very much indeed for your suggestion and research. Apologies, I thought I'd closed this question ages ago. I wish I could award points to everyone as all were helpful, one just led me slightly closer to the term I finally chose. Thank you again!
1 hr confidence: peer agreement (net): +1
statuary niche within an elaborate micro architectural frame
Only the two on the extreme right might fully fit my definition.
The rest range from a simple (/plain/unadorned) statutory niche (upper left), to ones with decorative borders of varying complexity, to the penultimate one in the upper register,
which is, I don't know, a "statutory niche built into the corner of a building under a projecting brick canopy." Or something.
I've never heard of a specific term for this in English and am presently looking in Banister Fletcher's History to see if he illustrates such an animal but, so far, with No Joy.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 4 hrs (2011-10-28 19:28:41 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Just to be clear, I prefer "statuary niche" to Pettiefleur's "statue niche" only because "statuary" comes closer to being the adjective which might describe the purpose of the niche (though the OED def. for the word as and adj. is "Consisting of statues or a statue; sculptured," which doesn't quite fit, since the niche is not made up of statues).
Still no luck finding an example of these things in Bannister Fletcher:
Christopher Crockett Local time: 12:04 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 71
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thank you very much Christopher. I appreciate your help on this and your thorough research. I just wish points could be awarded to more than one person.
Asker: Thanks very much indeed for your suggestion and research. Apologies, I thought I'd closed this question ages ago. I wish I could award points to everyone as all were helpful, one just led me slightly closer to the term I finally chose. Thank you again!
18 hrs confidence: peer agreement (net): +1
aedicule / tabernacle frame
Explanation: Another suggestion, offered tentatively because I am slightly unsure about how reliable the link you provide is.
Definition of aedicule: literally 'a small room'. They come in a variety of sizes, some you can walk into, but most are statuary niches with a tabernacle frame. The term for the composite whole is generally 'aedicule'.
A term now applied to the frames surrounding a classical doorway or window flanked by a pair of columns and topped by a pediment, but which has its origins in the architectural treatment of the shrines of the classical period. http://www.termwiki.com/EN:aedicule_₁
AEDICULE An architectural surround, consisting usually of two columns or pilasters supporting a pediment. Literally means 'little building'. The Church of St. Katherine, Teversal, contains an alabaster memorial to Sir Francis Molyneux surrounded by an aedicule. http://www.ashfield-dc.gov.uk/ccm/navigation/environment/lan...
Another definition or three:
Aedicule
an opening framed by two columns an entablature, and usually a pediment, placed against a wall, often containing a statue. Can contain a door ie aediculed doorway. (Illustration) (Illustration in context)
Found on http://www.encyclo.co.uk/local/20935
2.Aedicule
An aedicule or aedicula (derived from aedes) is a small, temple-like structure comprised of columns supporting a pedimented structure over a niche or window and usually used to shelter a shrine.
Found on http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/brow
3.Aedicule
Small structure intended to house a sacred image or statue. It may also be a niche set into the external wall of a building.
Found on http://www.arca.net/postcard/gourl.html?
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 23 hrs (2011-10-29 15:22:55 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Hi Lisa, thanks for the image. It does seem to fit with the idea of aedicule - sculpture placed within 'small room' with exterior grill in a shrine-like format. I think 'niche' alone would be rather misleading.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 23 hrs (2011-10-29 15:25:51 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
It even has a simplified tabernacle surround, though whether it is necessary to mention that will depend on your context.
And that should perhaps be 'grille', though I believe both spellings are acceptable.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 day8 mins (2011-10-29 15:35:48 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Maybe this will help. It reminds me of these - wayside shrines, although evidently not quite wayside in your case. I find it a little difficult to comment on a final solution not having seen any of the text. Maybe a tabernacle shrine would be acceptable to convey the sense of framing/housing - i.e. it is not just an open-air shrine which something like a calvaire might be thought to be: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvary_(sculpture) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayside_shrine
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 day9 mins (2011-10-29 15:36:26 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Sorry, links in wrong order above.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 day12 mins (2011-10-29 15:40:12 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Though you would need to make sure it was evident that the tabernacle shrine was on the exterior of the building, otherwise it might be confused with the more normal understanding of the term: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q="tabernacle shrine"&hl=en&r...
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 day18 mins (2011-10-29 15:45:23 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Perhaps then 'tabernacle shrine set into exterior wall of ...'
Helen Shiner United Kingdom Local time: 17:04 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 62
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks Helen. You've been very helpful (everyone has in fact). What about just trimming it down to 'shrine' in view of the fact that it's primarily for tourist information?
Asker: Thanks Helen. As always the context is negligible. The document describes old buildings in various parts of the region (chateâux, castles, manor houses etc) and the term 'potale' appears just once in a key to the map - that's it.
Asker: Thanks very much Helen. I have selected your answer as the most helpful as it took me closest to the final translation (which I have decided to footnote after all).
Asker: Sorry, I thought I'd closed this ages ago. Thanks very much for all your help Helen. I wish I could award a point to everyone, yours, however, led me a closer to my final choice. Thanks once again!
The translation workplace 
peer agreement (net): +1
