Login or register (free and only takes a few minutes) to participate in this question.
You will also have access to many other tools and opportunities designed for those who have language-related jobs (or are passionate about them). Participation is free and the site has a strict confidentiality policy.
French to English translations [PRO] Tech/Engineering - Construction / Civil Engineering / Urban Planning
French term or phrase:plan de masse
At a request from the moderator, I'm posting this as a separate question from the "vue en perspective indicative" one:
In an article for a homeowner's association about the construction of a Water Sanitation & Treatment Plant, there is a note about some attached documents:
"(voir vue en perspective indicative et plan de masse définitif joints)"
The question (this time around) is, am I correct, in this context, to translate a "plan de masse" as a site plan or ground plan?
Explanation: Plan de masse : Plan présentant les limites du terrain et son orientation, l'implantation de la construction par rapport aux limites du terrain, le tracé des voies de dessertes et les raccordements. Le plan masse fait figurer le plan des toitures de la construction.
Le positionnement de la station est précisé dans le plan de masse joint au
dossier. Des clichés de la station en cours d’installation ont été pris pour
conserver une trace visuelle de l’orientation.
Un mur fera office de clôture et limitera l’accès à l’installation.
Documents joints : doc. Station d’épuration + doc. d’installation + Plan de masse.
The 114-acre site is located at the intersection of State Route-9 and SR-522, just north of Woodinville. Treatment and support facilities will cover approximately 43 acres, with additional area for stormwater treatment, open space, wildlife habitat and wetlands. View larger image (PDF) of site plan.
Perhaps it would be as well to bear in mind KudoZ rule 2.1, from which I quote:
"(Guideline): "Help" KudoZ should be used for requesting terms help only after other resources have been exhausted. Resources available include the KudoZ archives (KudoZ > ProZ.com Term Search from the main menu), dictionaries, search engines, etc. If translations are found elsewhere and the decision to post a KudoZ question is made nevertheless, information found elsewhere should be included, along with an explanation of what further information is sought.
I apologize if you feel your time was being wasted. As I said, the moderator specifically requested that I re-post this question, despite the existence of similar entries in the archive. Feel free to ignore a question that feels like a waste of time to you.
No worries Tony. I had not taken it any other way my dear!
I see what you mean by the context thing in Linguee but I do not like it at all. There are just too many bad translations up there!
I take your point about the GDT. There are some professional lingusits working on it (100 or more????) and there is the possibility to submit suggestions for modifications which I have done on some nautical terms which were way off the mark. I do like the pages which have diagrams too. Not enough of them.
Your memory didn't deceive you - we've had this question a couple of times before. For example: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/tech_engineering...
Asker: please check the archive before posting questions - otherwise you're just wasting your time and ours.
I'm sure we all took your kind suggestion in the spirit in which it was intended; it is important to remember, though, that both GDT and Termium are not 'dictionaries' as such, i.e. they have not been thoroughly researched by professional lexicographers and field specialists — they are only what they claim to be, databases of translations that have been used (for better or for worse!) Only some of their translations are supported by proper references.
In this respect I find Linguee more 'transparent', in that it presents several examples of the term used in context, giving a better idea of just how good (or bad!) those translations might be — and I for one don't hesitate to point out some of the more glaringly bad examples, in the perhaps vain hope that will eventually lead to its being 'cleaned up' a little, in the way that sadly GDT doesn't seem to be; though there too, I do make a point of going to the trouble of pointing out obvious errors.
I too agree as with any dictionary, online or otherwise. My idea was to inform the asker of its existence. It can sometimes bail you out. You can then check out original language source documents to see if it in there for professional use or comic effect!
I agree Barbara about using both GDT and Termium with some circumspection — I have come across some right howlers in both of them, and I always say to myself "If there are enough errors for me to spot them within fields where I have some specific knowledge, how many more may there be in other fields that I am unaware of?"
Your Electronics illustration of 'plan de masse' is a perfect example; 'floorplan' is a hilarious mis-translation, it should of course be 'ground plane' — a techincal term that is quite specific to the particualr field.
Termium Plus is better source than GDT for anything technical. Care needs to be taken though when using those Canadian sources. I note that Termium gives "floorplan" as a translation for "plan de masse" in the specific context of electronics. I would also prioritise a field-specific dictionary/reference work over general dictionaries.
Not everyone knows of the GDT, le granddictionnaire.com which gives three options for this term. Otherwise, I agree with Tony. You need to consider what the "plan de masse" you are referring to actually takes into account.
OK, that's fine, it helps if you say what resources you've tried or not, so we don't waste time going back over old ground.
I think in truth the source term is sufficiently ambiguous, it could be any of those things, and the only way you can really decide between them is to see what the drawing actually covers, exactly.
@ Marina
I think that is a less likely possibility here, since by the sound of it this plant is going to be quite big and outdoors, whereas 'floorplan' more usually implies some kind of indoor installation.
Yes, I have -- the moderator requested that I re-post based on this different context. Based on the glossary, "site plan" seems like a reasonable translation to me, though.
Explanation: Plan de masse : Plan présentant les limites du terrain et son orientation, l'implantation de la construction par rapport aux limites du terrain, le tracé des voies de dessertes et les raccordements. Le plan masse fait figurer le plan des toitures de la construction.
Le positionnement de la station est précisé dans le plan de masse joint au
dossier. Des clichés de la station en cours d’installation ont été pris pour
conserver une trace visuelle de l’orientation.
Un mur fera office de clôture et limitera l’accès à l’installation.
Documents joints : doc. Station d’épuration + doc. d’installation + Plan de masse.
The 114-acre site is located at the intersection of State Route-9 and SR-522, just north of Woodinville. Treatment and support facilities will cover approximately 43 acres, with additional area for stormwater treatment, open space, wildlife habitat and wetlands. View larger image (PDF) of site plan.
Explanation: Sometimes referred to as a "block plan". This is a plan showing the project in relation to landscape and surrounding buildings.
www.arcspace.com/architects/Mecanoo/poj/poj.html
"To achieve the building massing plan, the architects pursued a strategy of integration through fragmentation by fitting the required volumes, including its patios, ..."
www.studiolimage.com/pl04-lbnl.html
"Studio L'Image. planning : studies : berkeley lab ... site and the Richmond Field Station. Cafeteria site massing plan."
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 11 hrs (2012-01-10 11:05:48 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
n.century21agencenivadour.com/tout_savoir/.../plan_de_masse.php
"Plan de masse Definition Plan de masse. Site plan. Plan of drawing site for building project in relation to the local neighbourhood. ..."
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 11 hrs (2012-01-10 11:08:43 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
This is not the same as a "site plan", which is limited to the actual site and does not need to show it in the context of the surrounding environment.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 12 hrs (2012-01-10 11:28:01 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
I meant to put a note with the Century 21 reference above, that it was included as an example of mistranslation and bad English: "Plan of drawing site for building project" [sic!], where they give an incorrect definition of a "site plan".
B D Finch France Local time: 02:29 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 339
Notes to answerer
Asker: I really appreciate your detailed answer -- I went with "site plan" for the reasons above (for non-specialists, this would be a difficult translation) but this is very well researched.
KudoZ™ translation help
The KudoZ network provides a framework for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases.
The translation workplace 
peer agreement (net): +1
