English translation: dainty/exquisitely fashioned gâteau
Login or register (free and only takes a few minutes) to participate in this question.
You will also have access to many other tools and opportunities designed for those who have language-related jobs (or are passionate about them). Participation is free and the site has a strict confidentiality policy.
French to English translations [Non-PRO] Cooking / Culinary
French term or phrase:fin gâteau
Hi all,
This is on a menu for a mega-posh restaurant in Paris - no more context than that I'm afraid! I thought maybe there's a speciality called a 'fin gâteau', but I haven't been able to find anything...anyone got any ideas?
Many thanks, as always!
Lucy-Jane
Explanation: if this is really a very posh restaurant, I really don' think the term 'cake' is at all suitable; but what's wrong with 'gâteau', it is toally acceptable and understandable in EN?
It looks rather as if these are possibly individual, small gâteaux (rather than, say, a slice out of a larger one) — so why not say so? And I think that 'dainty' satisfactorily conveys the idea of 'fin', without being too specific.
Cf. also the FR menu item 'tarte fine de...'
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 44 mins (2009-10-19 21:53:20 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
The problem is, 'fin gâteau' could cover all sorts of things — for example, an indulgent concocion of chocolate and meringue — which could scarcely really be described as a 'cake' in EN, and sits awkwardly with 'pastry' too; although the latter doesn't necessarily imply that it actually <l>contains any form iof 'pastry' (dough), it still connotes a certain type of dessert well known in England, but hardly the right register for a posh Paris restaurant.
An English tea-room might well vaunt its "excellent range of home-made cakes and pastries" — but these days, that sort of thing sits uneasily with a more up-market establishment.
However, the term 'gâteau' has been fully absorbed into EN restaurant culture for decades, and suggest just the sort of nuance of 'poshness' that I feel is called for here, while at the same time remaining sufficiently vague and non-committal to cover practically all possibilities.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 50 mins (2009-10-19 21:59:09 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
It's always a problem, translating menus, especially up-market ones... to know just how far to go... after all, anyone eating in such an establishment might well be expected to be familiar with menus in FR in an EN restaurant; and so many FR terms have been well assimilated into EN for ages, where does one draw the line between a 'gâteau' and a 'terrine' and a 'crème brûlée', for example?
My own feeling is that the best thing is not to even try to translate the name of the dish, but simply to offer an explanation of it in EN, so that at least the diner may have a general idea of what to expect; but for this to work, you have to have the total support of the restaurant... not an easy task, and one of the reasons I will only translate menus for establishments with whom I have an on-going relationship...
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 hr (2009-10-19 22:23:59 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Short of finding a neutral, catch-all term, the only real solution is to ask the specific chef in question what his particular 'fin gâteau' happens to consist of.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 9 hrs (2009-10-20 06:35:57 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
I'm really quite surprised to see just what a divergence there is here between AE and BE — I'd really never suspected as much; but then, I haven't done that much restaurant dining in the States!
To me, the biggest trouble with both 'cake' and 'pastry' is that they rather imply the use of flour somewhere, whereas quite a number of desserts of this type do not necessarily involve flour as a primary ingredient — they could be creamy, moussey or whatever, or might just have a thin 'biscuit' base.
I think Asker will have a hard job trying to decide which clientele this Paris restaurant is likely to have! The perennial problem of trying to find one 'international' EN!
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 9 hrs (2009-10-20 06:42:51 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
I think it may be a slight over-statement to say that the term 'gâteau' is not known in the US — even a quite cursory search on Google revealed very many uses of the term in specifically US contexts, including in home baking, where one might assume that the term was in general use, rather than being simply a manifestation of restaurant pretension.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 17 hrs (2009-10-20 14:09:59 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Of course, as W/A points out, 'individual' could only be used if you are sure it is! However, from your later added context straight from the horse's mouth, I rather suspect it pobably is, since those kind of praline feullantines would be a bit of a pain to cut neatly for a proper presentation.
In the end 'chocolate and hazelnut dacquoise' was accepted, but it was impossible for anyone to give this answer as I was unable to specify when posting the question! But I think a few points should go to Tony M for his conviction and determination to keep the word 'gâteau', which generated a very interesting debate!
In California, in the high-end restaurant I worked in we used "Dacquoise" so you could use that with a translated description "hazelnut etc Dacquoise covered with chocolate mousse."
and I've found a number of Googlies for choc/hazelnut dacquoise, I think I'm going to go with "chocolate and hazelnut dacquoise". I'll let you know if it gets changed in proof-reading! Many thanks again for all your help! L-J
from the client!
'Le fin Gateau est une Dacquoise avec de la feuillantine au praliné et recouverte d’une mousse au chocolat". Sounds more gâteau-y, would you agree?
It is entirely possible that this "general" term is being used to cover a variety of end products - whatever the pastry chef feels like making that day!
Here is a url that may be helpful www.jacquespastries.com. Google 'fine pastry' and you will find many resources to help you decide. It may also be helpful to know that a delicacy, as used in antiquity, is 'fin mets' in French. Fine is not an adjective in this case. A high quality dessert that is made from flour, eggs, sugar... and is aesthetically pleasing to both the eyes and the palate is a fine pastry. How else can it be put? Ah, perhaps this, pastry is used to make fine pastries. Pastry is 'pâte' in French- note the circonflex which replaces the 's' in François. It is what your grandmother made and possibly your mum too, and what you are likely to buy for less than a dollar or a euro in a plastic package at the local supermarket when you have masses of apples in your backyard. This is what 'pizzaolos' use to make pizzas and it is what five-star chefs use to make fine pastries.
What is the style of the rest of the menu? It would be fun if you could say something like 'fine pastries from François'.
We could go on about the cultural differences in languages or in the use of words like 'pastry' and 'cake' and 'fine' ...
gâteau is used in UK English but not in US English. I wouldn't accept a job into Canadian or Oz English because I am unaware of their 'specific' terms. Nothing 'unposh' (downmarket) about cake.
...though I still honestly feel that, even for a US readership, the word would not be out of place on a menu likely to be read by US visitors to a Paris restaurant — it's not as if it were intended for use in a restaurant in the US, for example.
I don't think you should be too discouraged about using 'gâteau' even for US readers (at least the kind that are likely to be visiting this restaurant; maybe not Mom and Pop in the Midwest!) — the term certainly seems to be fairly widely used these days even in the US, if the 'Net is anything to go by.
Thanks everyone for your contributions! This is for an extreeeemely posh restaurant - Christmas dinner around the €500 mark, for example, so a bit of French on the menu is, I believe, expected...the dilemma though is that they've asked for US English, so if gâteau isn't understood in the US (I'm British) I'd maybe better put cake...decisions, decisions...For the moment I think I'll leave it in French with (cake) afterwards, while awaiting a response from the client as to what this fin gâteau actually is - maybe as thescarid suggests it simply means 'no more cake'!! ;-)
...to enter this discussion with the Canadian view! We are in the terribly envious position of being a hybrid, ie a cross between the UK and France (as the founding fathers) and the US because of proximity. Cake is cake, whether your mum/mom bakes it or if offered in an up-scale restaurant...of course, you can leave it in French with a description in English but if it's an upscale restaurant, this defeats the purpose. Fine pastry is the flaky, sweet savouries, like croissant, baklava, etc...Here in Canada, we would go either way: (1) "fin gateau" or as was pointed out, perhaps it should be "gateau fin", which sounds far more elegant, or (2) "fine cakes".
Well, I personally think that "exquisite individual gâteau" is a lot closer to what the dessert is than your suggestion of "fine pastry". Admittedly, my final suggestion has been arrived at courtesy of Tony M. and Emmanuelle.
However, I think that it is now best to leave it up to the Asker to decide which of the many options is her personal favourite. She has a plethora of options.
I just went through all the suggestions and I have to say that if I saw an item that was described as "exquisite" I wouldn't order it. "gâteau exquis"? Neither.
i am going to bed. I do still believe that regardless of the appeal of breakfast pastry, fine cakes are fine pastry (at least in the US), though, of course, that has less bearing on how to translate "fin gâteau", which, BTW, why is it not "gâteau fin"? The answer may lie right there.
Emiledgar - I was just about to post in similar terms. I'd wager MOST folks in the US (who have not studied FR) would have no idea what a gâteau is. In US English, pastry would have the wrong interpretation, IMO. A pastry would be something flaky (like a filled croissant), while a cake would have the texture of a gâteau. Yes, Tony, Moms/Mums bake cakes, but so do the finest restaurants. Interestingly, though, we would call those professional bakers "pastry chefs."
There is currently open question for "biscuit" which may encounter the same issues.
This may have to do with the the UK appropriatin of certain French words (such as fête) which don't happen in the US. Most people will have no idea what a gâteau is. And don't forget, in the US an "entrée" is the main course.
With the parlous state of the £/€ exchange rate, I somehow doubt there will be many EN people eating there either!
But there clearly is some kind of UK / US divide here (that I was unaware of), since in the UK at least, a 'cake' is generally something your Mum might make, but a 'gâteau' is a special treat you would eat when out.
And the best term depends on the target audience - as in, which well-heeled speakers of English are coming to eat at this mega posh place. Given the current state of the US economy, it may not be speakers of US English.
Personally, I believe that the best solution would be to keep the French name of the cake / pastry / gâteau / whatever it is. Then describe what it is in brackets. IE. fin gâteau (a milk chocolate, banana and lime cake / gâteau).
This is merely my opinion, it can either be accepted or rejected.
Considering our exchanges below, this may well be a wonderful example of what Winston Churchill called "two people divided by a common language." In the US, "cake" is not relegated to the bottom, and "fine pastry" is exactly that. However, to really impress in a pretentious way, (and if it's a restaurant with French food), the original French would probably be used, except that in this case, it's not a particular name for a type of cake, a "fin gâteau" is not a "Reine de Saba" or a "Savarin" or a "Mendiant."
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
7 mins confidence:
Tiny cake
Explanation: It could be any number of things - probably need to clarify with your client. Fin referring to gâteau can be
Extrêmement petit
D'une grande délicatesse
De la qualité la meilleure
as well as few other things
Travelin Ann Local time: 18:17 Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 8
Explanation: I've never heard of a specific cake called a "fin gâteau" so I think that even though it's "gâteau" and not "gâteaux" they are promoting the idea of "fine pastry" as opposed to something more mundane. In this case it's a fabulous, extremely sophisticated cake that they are offering for dessert. Since "fine cake" sounds bizarre, I'm suggesting "fine pastry".
emiledgar Belgium Local time: 00:17 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English, French PRO pts in category: 61
The translation workplace 
peer agreement (net): +1
