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17:36 Jan 24, 2012
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French to English translations [PRO] Education / Pedagogy / French education system
French term or phrase:"l'obtention de son concours"
CONTEXT: A exerce en qualite de Maitre de Conferences- Praticien Hospitalier specialiste en
Protheses a LILLE suite a l'obtention de son concours soutenu devant le CNU. (Taken from an Affidavit confirming someone's educational background)
Hi everyone, I need some help formulating the phrase "l'obtention de son concours" into English. I know what it means, but I just can't find a way to say it accurately in BRITISH (preferably) English. Looking forward to your responses.
Thank you for this post. I see more precsiely what you are trying to get at.
However, I think we are up against one of the major difficulties of translating with this one. There is a cultural academic meaning behind this type of concours in France. Without having succeeded in the concours you are not entiteld to practice the speciality.
When you say :
"failing at the concours does not necessarily mean that the candidate was not qualified for the job"
I see what you mean, but as entitlement to practice a given speciality requires success in the concours, failing the concours means that the person is NOT qualified for the job. Passing the concours means you are qualified in the speciality.
How could I say that having failed the speech therapy entrance concours that I never the less qualify to start the course? I do not! I was one mark behind the last one who got in, but that left me 133 places behind!
Given that the job is open to those who qualify via success in the concours, success in the concours = qualification. T'as pas le concours, t'as pas le ticket. T'es pas qualifié! It cannot be rendered accruately otherwise. It IS a qualifying exam, interview etc.
I don't disagree at all with your brief description of the French concours system, nor with the fact that the term is often (including by me) translated as "competitive exam". Most English speakers will understand from "competitive exam" that the candidates are competing against each other as well as the fixed qualification criteria.
But it is this latter point that makes me obejct to ther term "qualifying exam", especially in this context. "Qualifying exam" in medicine, to this EN-GB speaker, makes me think of something like the MRCP: you pass the exam, and then you can apply for the jobs. A concours is something different: it is a selection process for a fixed number of posts. It is qualifying in the sense that the jury doesn't *have* to fill all the posts if there are not enough qualified candidates, but failing at the concours does not necessarily mean that the candidate was not qualified for the job, merely that s/he was not among those who were selected. In short, the translation "qualifying exam" is ambiguous and potentially misleading to an EN-GB audience, and hence to be avoided, especially in a formal situation such as the translation of an Affidavit.
IMHO ;)
Concours and soutenance.
To summarize, a concours is classically transated as a qualifying or competitive examination. Full qualification or awarding of the title, or diploma, often requires a soutenance, or oral. That oral may require the defence of a paper (dissertation, report, etc) but may be an interview before a panel. I have been a candidate to the concours d'entrée for the speech therapy course in France. If successful at the exam stage, there is then access to the oral. A combination of both marks will determine the overall mark and whether or not you are in the top ranking candidates and therefore successful in the concours. // General practicitionner friends after 10 years of service applied by "concours" type I or type II, I cannot recall which, to be able to be 'chef de service'. The Concours itself amounted to a formal interview. If successful in the concours, they received the entitlement to be chef de service. No exam, yet officially success in a concours.
Other concours, require defence of a writtten paper of some sort.
Concours always has the idea of quallification of a limited number but the route to success may vary!
It IS a qualifying examination to the extent that it qualifies the holder to practice the specialization. There is a numerus clausus for concours. I have sat a couple myelf. The 'pass mark' is a flaoting pass mark as a particular number will pass. It cannot be construed in English as anything other than a qualifying examination as without it you cannot practice the specialization.
Soutenu devant le CNU is not bad French. An oral is standard practice for French examinations and qualifications. There are a number of concours which require no paper, dissertation, thesis whatever (I did say MAY), but which require a candidate to "soutenir"; in certain medical qualifying concours, it amounts to little more than an interview following an application once a certain number of years experience in a certain domain have been acquired. Sometimes it is by examination, a combination of both.
Do bear in mind that soutenance can mean formal presentation (viva voce) of a paper etc as I said ealrier or idneed an interview, whose level of formality can vary. Also remember that access to various disciplines and specializations vary over time, and that rules and regulations change.
1. It is not a "qualifying examination" because the number of people who pass is determined by the number of available posts. So a candidate might be 'reçu' with 13/20 one year, but another year the same mark would not be enough. The CNU *also* runs qualifying examinations for 'maître de conférences' posts in other disciplines (I passed in chemistry), and these are called 'qualification', not 'concours'.
2. The 'soutenu devant le CNU' is simply bad French. There is almost certainly an oral examination as part of the concours (there is in law, I don't know the details for medicine), but you cannot conclude that the phrase is simply referring to the oral part. The French should really read 'suite à la réussite au concours du CNU' or something similar. On soutient une thèse, et si on réussit on est accordé le titre ; on passe un concours, et si on réussit on est reçu.
Thank you Nikki.. I think your response is most fitting. If you wish to have Kudoz points, please post your reponse in the Answer section, maybe entitling it "qualifying examination" and I will award the points accordingly.
As for the rest of the sentence, "soutenu devant le CNU", that is referring to the oral part of the qualification, which may have required the presentation of a paper, a dissertation, a thesis. I have not looked into the details of this particular qualification but the sense is the oral element. Root around the glossaries here; there are no doubt one or two suggstions in there which would do the trick! "Presented to the CNU...", "defended before the CNU...". Not qutie sure what is standard for your target.
Yes, a concours is a "competitive exam". A certain quota will be awarded the diploma.
You pass or you fail. You cannot be among the "most qualified". You are either qualified or not!
As I read this one, the 'concours' is referring to the specialistion. I think the answer shoudl make that perfectly clear. I woudl suggest an answer along those lines but I cannot answer thhe question.
Suggested answer : "after having qualified as a prosthesist", "after having obtained specialist qualification as a prosthesist"...
Nigel W, thank you...but I don't think that would work, given the phrase "soutenu devant le CNU" that immediately follows. On second thought, and in response to your first question, an "accurate" response is probably what is best in this scenario, no?
do you want something that is accurate or something that flows nicely in English? "Competitive examination" is a common translation of 'concours', but not one that I personally would use in a legal context.
Explanation: Examination to select candidates, typically for universities in the UK. The concours is a typically French institution, and is indeed a competitive examination, but if you want something that flows, I think this suggestion may fit.
after having been ranked … among those most qualified to occupy the posts available in France
Explanation: I know it doesn't look anything like the original French – I don't care! It explains what a 'concours' actually is, which I think is important in the context.
… = by the /Conseil National des Universités/ (National Council of Universities)
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 41 mins (2012-01-24 18:18:11 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
"after having been ranked by the /Conseil National des Universités/ (National Council of Universities) among those most qualified to occupy the posts available in France"
Nigel Wheatley United Kingdom Local time: 08:43 Meets criteria Works in field Native speaker of: English
Notes to answerer
Asker: Nigel W, thank you...but I don't think that would work, given the phrase "soutenu devant le CNU" that immediately follows. On second thought, and in response to your first question, an "accurate" response is probably what is best in this scenario, no?
The translation workplace 
peer agreement (net): +1
