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ni dans le fond ni dans la forme

English translation: neither in form nor in substance

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:ni dans le fond ni dans la forme
English translation:neither in form nor in substance
Entered by: suezen
Options:
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- Include in personal glossary

12:32 Feb 25, 2006
French to English translations [Non-PRO]
General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters / general phraseology
French term or phrase: ni dans le fond ni dans la forme
The document is a "Project Quality Plan" stipulating the procedures and responsabilities for implementing a new project.

The particular phrase is found under the heading "Documents de Référence", and goes as follows:

Les documents de référence sont des documents qui permettent d´effectuer le développement qui ne sont pas imposés ou dont la vérification d´application n´est pas possible ni dans le fond ni dans la forme. Ils servent avant tout de base de travail pour mener à bien le développment.

I just can't think what this means! All comments and suggestions are, as always, most appreciated!

Wendy
Wendy Cummings
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:36
neither in the substance nor in the form
Explanation:
This is so common in French and seems to be much less so in English. But it basically comes from the idea of:
logos - the logical content (substance)
lexis - the style and delivery (form)
Selected response from:

suezen
Local time: 07:36
Grading comment
All suggestions were quite similar, so I chose this one based mainly on number of "agrees". I have omitted the articles however, as suggested by LBMas, and put "neither in substance nor form".
Many thanks to everyone who contributed.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
3 +5neither in the substance nor in the form
suezen
3 +2for which it is impossible to verify the application either substantively or procedurally
Anna Fitzgerald
3 +1neither in content nor in formAssimina Vavoula
3 +1neither in content or formSylvia Smith
3is [completely] impossible
LBMas
3neither in their content nor in their presentationiol
2in any shape or formxxxsergey


  

Answers


3 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
neither in content or form


Explanation:
hope this helps!

Sylvia Smith
Local time: 07:36
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Patricia Lane: sylvia, I think you meant neither... nor, yes??
11 mins
  -> ah! yes, thank you Patricia!

agree  LBMas
11 hrs
  -> merci!
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18 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
in any shape or form


Explanation:
could it be
cannot be verified in any shape or form?

xxxsergey
Local time: 06:36
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
neither in content nor in form


Explanation:
...

Assimina Vavoula
Greece
Local time: 08:36
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in GreekGreek
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  IC --
1 day3 hrs
  -> Thanks.
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
for which it is impossible to verify the application either substantively or procedurally


Explanation:
I think they're saying that it's impossible to verify the application of the documents either on a global level ("fond", content, substantively) or more concretely ("forme", one way to express this is "procedurally").

The words "substantively" and "procedurally" are often used together in discussions of law and policy:

If there is a question or disagreement about the law that has been or should be applied in a particular case (either substantively or procedurally) either party may appeal to a higher court.

reference_question_of_the_week.classcaster.org/ blog/general/2006/01/27/reporting_unreported_cases

A system of environmental protection might be evaluated either substantively or procedurally.

www.bostonreview.net/BR24.5/sunstein.html

One key tool used by the CHPAC in its deliberations was the development of seven screening criteria to select rules for re-evaluation that would positively impact children's health protection either substantively or procedurally (Attachment A).

yosemite.epa.gov/ochp/ochpweb.nsf/ content/whatwe_reg_rprt.htm

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2006-02-25 15:43:52 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here are the links:

http://reference_question_of_the_week.classcaster.org/blog/g...

http://yosemite.epa.gov/ochp/ochpweb.nsf/content/whatwe_reg_...

Anna Fitzgerald
France
Local time: 07:36
Works in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  gad: hey Anna :)
4 hrs
  -> Thanks, gad. Hope you're well.

agree  IC --
1 day2 hrs
  -> Thanks icg
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7 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +5
neither in the substance nor in the form


Explanation:
This is so common in French and seems to be much less so in English. But it basically comes from the idea of:
logos - the logical content (substance)
lexis - the style and delivery (form)

suezen
Local time: 07:36
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 63
Grading comment
All suggestions were quite similar, so I chose this one based mainly on number of "agrees". I have omitted the articles however, as suggested by LBMas, and put "neither in substance nor form".
Many thanks to everyone who contributed.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  gad
38 mins
  -> thanks gad!

agree  LBMas: without the articles... neither in subtance nor form
4 hrs

agree  Rachel Vanarsdall: "neither in form nor in substance" - without the articles, as LBMas said, but I would also reverse the order ("form" first is more common)
7 hrs
  -> thanks Rachel. I took your comments into account in the glossary entry :-)

agree  IC --
22 hrs
  -> thanks!

agree  Assimina Vavoula
22 hrs
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11 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
is [completely] impossible


Explanation:
I suggest this, partly due to suezen's comment that this a common French expression, but sounds convoluted in English. (At least, in business English. Colloquially we often say, "in no way, shape or form.") Why not simplify if it retains the meaning?

Just a thought after reading your good suggestions, but wondering if the phrase needs to be translated so literally.

LBMas
Local time: 01:36
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
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21 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
neither in their content nor in their presentation


Explanation:
Just another suggestion..

iol
France
Local time: 07:36
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: French
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