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châtellenie (v. seigneurie)

English translation: castellany

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:châtellenie
English translation:castellany
Entered by: Lesley Clayton
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19:01 Jun 15, 2005
French to English translations [PRO]
History / medieval
French term or phrase: châtellenie (v. seigneurie)
"La seigneurie de Lussac, qualifiée de châtellenie dès 1406, paraît être un démembrement de l’immense fief possédé dans le pays par l’importante maison des La Trémoille : Elle était en leur possession dès le XIe siècle."

A châtellenie is a step up from a seigneurie, but all I can find for both is seigniory (or seigneury), which is what I've used for both words until now. Well, I obviously can't get away with that here. Is there another word for châtellenie in this context?
Lesley Clayton
France
Local time: 10:20
castellany or castellanship
Explanation:
The OED offers "castellanship", but I prefer "castellany", myself.

CASTELLAN

The governor or constable of a castle.

1393 GOWER Conf. I. 184 Of this castell was castellaine Elda the kinges chamberlaine. c1430 Syr Gener. (Roxb.) 2735 The Castelleyn That of the prison was wardeyn. 1591 GARRARD Art Warre 48 It is not lawful for the Castellane to leave his Castle. 1641 Termes de la Ley 47. 1678 Lond. Gaz. No. 1286/2 The Comptroller and Castelyn of the Princes Hof to continue. 1684 Scanderbeg Rediv. i. 5 His Father being James Sobiesky Castellan of Cracovia. 1827 F. COOPER Prairie I. xii. 178 Obliged to constitute the girl herself castellain. 1844 H. H. WILSON Brit. India (1845) I. 173 The castellans of the forts of Kalinjar and Ajaygerh. 1876 GREEN Short Hist. iii. §1 (1882) 129 The piety of the Norman Castellans rebuilt almost all the parish churches of the city [Oxford].


Hence castellanship.

1885 J. H. ROUND in Dict. Nat. Biog. IV. 33/1 He was..restored to his shrievalty and castellanship.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 26 mins (2005-06-15 19:27:28 GMT)
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The distinction between the two is that the \"seigneurie\" which was a \"castellany\" included a \"castle\" (Latin \"castrum\") or \"stronghold\", which might be anything from a simple tower with outbuildings to an elaborate \"castle\" or \"chateau\".

A \"seigneurie\" could be a relatively modest holding.

Though the two are roughly interchangable, as the \"qualifiée de\" in your text suggests. The scribe of the 1406 document just chose this word to describe the holding, rather than the other.

I\'m reasonably sure that it\'s not a matter of the fief being raised to the status of a castellany in 1406 --a \"castrum\" was surely part of it in the XIth c., which was the highpoint of \"feudal anarchy\", when \"castle\" building was the means by which Power was extended.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 37 mins (2005-06-15 19:38:55 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Terminology in medieval documents are always somewhat troubling --the middlevils were not always accurate nor consistent.

\"qualifiée de châtellenie dès 1406\" suggests that the term first shows up in a document in 1406 and is used to describe the place from that time forward.

By the early 15th c. the situation in the feudal hierarchy was very different from what it was when these seigneuries, castellanies, counties, etc. were first \"laid out\", and the terms used were (under the influence of the burgeoning Lawyer Class) starting to have a much more specific meaning.

For the non-technical purposes of (I assume) your touristy guide, however, I wouldn\'t get bogged down in legalistic details.

\"La seigneurie de Lussac, qualifiée de châtellenie dès 1406, paraît

\"The seigneurie of Lussac (referred to as a \"castellany\" from 1406) was a part of a very large fief in the region held by the important family of La Trémoille, and was in their possession from as early as the 11th century.\"

Something like that.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 18 hrs 49 mins (2005-06-16 13:50:38 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Thanks to Nick\'s suggestion, here\'s the OED on CASTELLANY:

The office or jurisdiction of a castellan; the lordship of a castle, or the district belonging to a castle.

[1357 in Sir T. D. Hardy Syllab. Rymer\'s Fdera I. 392 The castelanny of Reule shall be committed only to Englishmen.] 1696 PHILLIPS, Castellany, the Lordship of a Castle, and the extent of his Land and Jurisdiction. 1756 NUGENT Gr. Tour, Netherl. I. 292 The country round about Ipres, called the castellany, or castleward, and containing about thirty villages, depends upon the government of the town. 1788 R. KELHAM Domesday Bk. 147 (T.) Earl Allan has within his castellany..200 manors. 1849 tr. V. Hugo\'s Hunchback 162 The seven castellanies of the viscounty of Paris.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 23 hrs 29 mins (2005-06-16 18:31:02 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

I\'m troubled by my own fuzziness about the distinction between meaning of the two words.

It looks like all \"chatellains\" were \"seigneurs\", but not all the latter were the former.

Here\'s the Tresor de la langue Francaise on them both:

SEIGNEURIE, subst. fém.
A. FÉODALITÉ

1. Souveraineté exercée par le seigneur en matière de justice, de gouvernement sur un territoire dont il est détenteur et sur ses habitants auxquels il assure la protection militaire en échange de services et de perception de droits. Des évêques, des chanoines, des abbés possédaient donc des fiefs ou des censives en vertu de leurs fonctions ecclésiastiques; le couvent avait, d\'ordinaire, la seigneurie du village sur le territoire duquel il était placé (TOCQUEVILLE, Anc. Rég. et Révol., 1856, p. 94).
P. anal. Seigneurie ecclésiastique. Ailleurs, ce furent des évêques, des abbés qui recueillirent la succession de l\'État tombé dans l\'impuissance. Telle fut l\'origine des seigneuries ecclésiastiques (BAINVILLE, Hist. Fr., t. 1, 1924, p. 44).
2. Forme d\'organisation sociale et territoriale correspondant à cette souveraineté; unité territoriale relevant de cette forme d\'organisation. Il avait déjà si solidement organisé le nouvel État insulaire [Chypre] que, sur sa demande, l\'empereur Henri VI venait d\'ériger cette seigneurie en royaume (GROUSSET, Croisades, 1939, p. 289):

Quatre espèces de propriétés étaient distinguées: 1. Les seigneuries. Ceux qui les possèdent, nobles ou roturiers, ecclésiastiques ou laïques, devaient former la première classe. On divisait en trois autres classes les propriétés ordinaires ou simples, par opposition aux seigneuries.
SIEYÈS, Tiers état, 1789, p. 51.
CHÂTELLENIE, subst. fém.

DR. FÉOD. Seigneurie ou juridiction du seigneur châtelain. Droit de châtellenie; ériger une châtellenie en marquisat (Ac. 1798-1932).
P. méton. Étendue de pays, comportant château et fiefs, placée sous cette juridiction. Cette paroisse, cette terre est/était de la châtellenie d\'un tel lieu (Ac. 1835-1932). Après avoir acheté notre Huchière, avec la châtellenie et la seigneurie, ils [les Babud] ont pris le nom de Saligny qui est un des villages (MORAND, Parfaite de Saligny, 1947, p. 106).
Prononc. et Orth. : []. Les finales -enie ou -énie s\'écrivent avec un seul n; cf. vilenie, neurasthénie, etc. Attesté ds Ac. 1694 et 1718 s.v. Chastellenie, ds Ac. 1740-1932 sous la forme moderne. Étymol. et Hist. [XIIe s. d\'apr. FEW et BL.-W.5] 1260 chatelenie « territoire sur lequel le seigneur châtelain exerce sa juridiction » (Ste Croix, A. Vienne ds GDF. Compl.). Dér. du rad. de châtelain*; suff. -ie* a supplanté l\'a. fr. chastelerie fin XIIe s. (Prise Orange, éd. C. Régnier, 16) 1611, COTGR. Fréq. abs. littér. : 12.

CHÂTELAIN1, AINE, subst. et adj.

A. FÉOD. Maître, maîtresse du château; spéc., subst. masc. celui qui commande la châtellenie et y exerce les droits de justice. Dans la hiérarchie de la noblesse, le châtelain venait immédiatement après le baron (BOUILLET 1859) :

1. Voilà bien l\'appartement de la châtelaine enchantée, la croisée gothique, la cascade écumeuse qui rafraîchit son front, les sièges de chêne et de velours sur lesquels elle médite au milieu de sa cour, mais où donc est le châtelain du lieu? Serait-il en Palestine à la poursuite des infidèles à côté du roi Philippe-Auguste ou de Saint Louis?
GOZLAN, Le Notaire de Chantilly, 1836, p. 78.

2. Les chefs barbares, devenus châtelains féodaux, se battaient entre eux, pillaient les paysans, détroussaient les marchands, volaient et maltraitaient à plaisir leurs misérables serfs.
TAINE, Philos. de l\'art, t. 1, 1865, p. 78.

Emploi adj. Seigneur châtelain, dame châtelaine. Les seigneurs châtelains du quinzième siècle (SÉNAC DE MEILHAN, L\'Émigré, 1797, p. 1572).
Juge châtelain et parfois absol. châtelain. Juge qui rendait la justice dans une châtellenie au nom du seigneur châtelain. Châtelains royaux, seigneuriaux.
B. Propriétaire d\'un château de plaisance. Un noble, un riche châtelain. Son épouse. Une belle et aimable châtelaine.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 12 mins (2005-06-16 19:14:01 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Concerning whether or not \"a chatelain outranked a seigneur\" and why the trésor doesn\'t commit itself on that question :

\"Feudalism\" and the \"Feudal System\" was, above all, Organized Chaos.

It was very much an ad hoc \"system\" which evolved out of the political, social and military anarchy of the period after the collapse of the Carolingian Empire in the latter half of the 9th century, and emerged in the course of the 10th and early 11th centuries (depending somewhat upon the region) as a more or less coherent social, economic and military organising principle (with a heavy dose of Theology thrown in as a kind of permeating gluten).

From the eariest period --and increasily so later-- the Great \"Seigneurs\" accumulated \"fiefs\", which could be anything from the rights to collect certain rents or duties over specific pieces of property (farmland, mills, whatever), to the rights to exercise the administration of Justice (which paid very well) over certain places, to the simple possession of property (with or without the above rights), to god knows what else.

Possession of a _castrum_ was one form of \"seigneurie\", and it was certainly possible that a \"chatellain\" might outrank a \"seigneur\" in some instances --and that the opposite might have been true for another pair of guys.

It\'s just impossible to say.

Just as, in the U.S., \"all politics is local\", so in the European M.A. everything has to be taken down to its most irreducable, local, level.

It is clear from your text that the Seigneur of La Trémoille would have outranked any simple castellain who happened to hold Lussac (especially if that castellain held the _castrum_ from him).

But La Trémoille himself might have been outranked by a fellow who held a very, very important châtellenie (though this is unlikely).

Seem confusing?

Then you have taken the first step toward understanding \"Feudalism\".
Selected response from:

Christopher Crockett
Local time: 04:20
Grading comment
Thank you, Christopher, for an extremely helpful answer, and thanks to everyone else.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
5 +4castellany or castellanship
Christopher Crockett
3chatellenie
DocteurPC


Discussion entries: 2





  

Answers


6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
châtellenie (v. seigneurie)
chatellenie


Explanation:
according to Word Reference

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs 32 mins (2005-06-16 01:33:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

defined as : la seigneurerie d\'un châtelain

(even if my answer is not as well researched as Christopher\'s)


    Reference: http://wordreference.com
DocteurPC
Canada
Local time: 04:20
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench, Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

17 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +4
châtellenie (v. seigneurie)
castellany or castellanship


Explanation:
The OED offers "castellanship", but I prefer "castellany", myself.

CASTELLAN

The governor or constable of a castle.

1393 GOWER Conf. I. 184 Of this castell was castellaine Elda the kinges chamberlaine. c1430 Syr Gener. (Roxb.) 2735 The Castelleyn That of the prison was wardeyn. 1591 GARRARD Art Warre 48 It is not lawful for the Castellane to leave his Castle. 1641 Termes de la Ley 47. 1678 Lond. Gaz. No. 1286/2 The Comptroller and Castelyn of the Princes Hof to continue. 1684 Scanderbeg Rediv. i. 5 His Father being James Sobiesky Castellan of Cracovia. 1827 F. COOPER Prairie I. xii. 178 Obliged to constitute the girl herself castellain. 1844 H. H. WILSON Brit. India (1845) I. 173 The castellans of the forts of Kalinjar and Ajaygerh. 1876 GREEN Short Hist. iii. §1 (1882) 129 The piety of the Norman Castellans rebuilt almost all the parish churches of the city [Oxford].


Hence castellanship.

1885 J. H. ROUND in Dict. Nat. Biog. IV. 33/1 He was..restored to his shrievalty and castellanship.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 26 mins (2005-06-15 19:27:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The distinction between the two is that the \"seigneurie\" which was a \"castellany\" included a \"castle\" (Latin \"castrum\") or \"stronghold\", which might be anything from a simple tower with outbuildings to an elaborate \"castle\" or \"chateau\".

A \"seigneurie\" could be a relatively modest holding.

Though the two are roughly interchangable, as the \"qualifiée de\" in your text suggests. The scribe of the 1406 document just chose this word to describe the holding, rather than the other.

I\'m reasonably sure that it\'s not a matter of the fief being raised to the status of a castellany in 1406 --a \"castrum\" was surely part of it in the XIth c., which was the highpoint of \"feudal anarchy\", when \"castle\" building was the means by which Power was extended.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 37 mins (2005-06-15 19:38:55 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Terminology in medieval documents are always somewhat troubling --the middlevils were not always accurate nor consistent.

\"qualifiée de châtellenie dès 1406\" suggests that the term first shows up in a document in 1406 and is used to describe the place from that time forward.

By the early 15th c. the situation in the feudal hierarchy was very different from what it was when these seigneuries, castellanies, counties, etc. were first \"laid out\", and the terms used were (under the influence of the burgeoning Lawyer Class) starting to have a much more specific meaning.

For the non-technical purposes of (I assume) your touristy guide, however, I wouldn\'t get bogged down in legalistic details.

\"La seigneurie de Lussac, qualifiée de châtellenie dès 1406, paraît

\"The seigneurie of Lussac (referred to as a \"castellany\" from 1406) was a part of a very large fief in the region held by the important family of La Trémoille, and was in their possession from as early as the 11th century.\"

Something like that.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 18 hrs 49 mins (2005-06-16 13:50:38 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Thanks to Nick\'s suggestion, here\'s the OED on CASTELLANY:

The office or jurisdiction of a castellan; the lordship of a castle, or the district belonging to a castle.

[1357 in Sir T. D. Hardy Syllab. Rymer\'s Fdera I. 392 The castelanny of Reule shall be committed only to Englishmen.] 1696 PHILLIPS, Castellany, the Lordship of a Castle, and the extent of his Land and Jurisdiction. 1756 NUGENT Gr. Tour, Netherl. I. 292 The country round about Ipres, called the castellany, or castleward, and containing about thirty villages, depends upon the government of the town. 1788 R. KELHAM Domesday Bk. 147 (T.) Earl Allan has within his castellany..200 manors. 1849 tr. V. Hugo\'s Hunchback 162 The seven castellanies of the viscounty of Paris.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 23 hrs 29 mins (2005-06-16 18:31:02 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

I\'m troubled by my own fuzziness about the distinction between meaning of the two words.

It looks like all \"chatellains\" were \"seigneurs\", but not all the latter were the former.

Here\'s the Tresor de la langue Francaise on them both:

SEIGNEURIE, subst. fém.
A. FÉODALITÉ

1. Souveraineté exercée par le seigneur en matière de justice, de gouvernement sur un territoire dont il est détenteur et sur ses habitants auxquels il assure la protection militaire en échange de services et de perception de droits. Des évêques, des chanoines, des abbés possédaient donc des fiefs ou des censives en vertu de leurs fonctions ecclésiastiques; le couvent avait, d\'ordinaire, la seigneurie du village sur le territoire duquel il était placé (TOCQUEVILLE, Anc. Rég. et Révol., 1856, p. 94).
P. anal. Seigneurie ecclésiastique. Ailleurs, ce furent des évêques, des abbés qui recueillirent la succession de l\'État tombé dans l\'impuissance. Telle fut l\'origine des seigneuries ecclésiastiques (BAINVILLE, Hist. Fr., t. 1, 1924, p. 44).
2. Forme d\'organisation sociale et territoriale correspondant à cette souveraineté; unité territoriale relevant de cette forme d\'organisation. Il avait déjà si solidement organisé le nouvel État insulaire [Chypre] que, sur sa demande, l\'empereur Henri VI venait d\'ériger cette seigneurie en royaume (GROUSSET, Croisades, 1939, p. 289):

Quatre espèces de propriétés étaient distinguées: 1. Les seigneuries. Ceux qui les possèdent, nobles ou roturiers, ecclésiastiques ou laïques, devaient former la première classe. On divisait en trois autres classes les propriétés ordinaires ou simples, par opposition aux seigneuries.
SIEYÈS, Tiers état, 1789, p. 51.
CHÂTELLENIE, subst. fém.

DR. FÉOD. Seigneurie ou juridiction du seigneur châtelain. Droit de châtellenie; ériger une châtellenie en marquisat (Ac. 1798-1932).
P. méton. Étendue de pays, comportant château et fiefs, placée sous cette juridiction. Cette paroisse, cette terre est/était de la châtellenie d\'un tel lieu (Ac. 1835-1932). Après avoir acheté notre Huchière, avec la châtellenie et la seigneurie, ils [les Babud] ont pris le nom de Saligny qui est un des villages (MORAND, Parfaite de Saligny, 1947, p. 106).
Prononc. et Orth. : []. Les finales -enie ou -énie s\'écrivent avec un seul n; cf. vilenie, neurasthénie, etc. Attesté ds Ac. 1694 et 1718 s.v. Chastellenie, ds Ac. 1740-1932 sous la forme moderne. Étymol. et Hist. [XIIe s. d\'apr. FEW et BL.-W.5] 1260 chatelenie « territoire sur lequel le seigneur châtelain exerce sa juridiction » (Ste Croix, A. Vienne ds GDF. Compl.). Dér. du rad. de châtelain*; suff. -ie* a supplanté l\'a. fr. chastelerie fin XIIe s. (Prise Orange, éd. C. Régnier, 16) 1611, COTGR. Fréq. abs. littér. : 12.

CHÂTELAIN1, AINE, subst. et adj.

A. FÉOD. Maître, maîtresse du château; spéc., subst. masc. celui qui commande la châtellenie et y exerce les droits de justice. Dans la hiérarchie de la noblesse, le châtelain venait immédiatement après le baron (BOUILLET 1859) :

1. Voilà bien l\'appartement de la châtelaine enchantée, la croisée gothique, la cascade écumeuse qui rafraîchit son front, les sièges de chêne et de velours sur lesquels elle médite au milieu de sa cour, mais où donc est le châtelain du lieu? Serait-il en Palestine à la poursuite des infidèles à côté du roi Philippe-Auguste ou de Saint Louis?
GOZLAN, Le Notaire de Chantilly, 1836, p. 78.

2. Les chefs barbares, devenus châtelains féodaux, se battaient entre eux, pillaient les paysans, détroussaient les marchands, volaient et maltraitaient à plaisir leurs misérables serfs.
TAINE, Philos. de l\'art, t. 1, 1865, p. 78.

Emploi adj. Seigneur châtelain, dame châtelaine. Les seigneurs châtelains du quinzième siècle (SÉNAC DE MEILHAN, L\'Émigré, 1797, p. 1572).
Juge châtelain et parfois absol. châtelain. Juge qui rendait la justice dans une châtellenie au nom du seigneur châtelain. Châtelains royaux, seigneuriaux.
B. Propriétaire d\'un château de plaisance. Un noble, un riche châtelain. Son épouse. Une belle et aimable châtelaine.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 12 mins (2005-06-16 19:14:01 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Concerning whether or not \"a chatelain outranked a seigneur\" and why the trésor doesn\'t commit itself on that question :

\"Feudalism\" and the \"Feudal System\" was, above all, Organized Chaos.

It was very much an ad hoc \"system\" which evolved out of the political, social and military anarchy of the period after the collapse of the Carolingian Empire in the latter half of the 9th century, and emerged in the course of the 10th and early 11th centuries (depending somewhat upon the region) as a more or less coherent social, economic and military organising principle (with a heavy dose of Theology thrown in as a kind of permeating gluten).

From the eariest period --and increasily so later-- the Great \"Seigneurs\" accumulated \"fiefs\", which could be anything from the rights to collect certain rents or duties over specific pieces of property (farmland, mills, whatever), to the rights to exercise the administration of Justice (which paid very well) over certain places, to the simple possession of property (with or without the above rights), to god knows what else.

Possession of a _castrum_ was one form of \"seigneurie\", and it was certainly possible that a \"chatellain\" might outrank a \"seigneur\" in some instances --and that the opposite might have been true for another pair of guys.

It\'s just impossible to say.

Just as, in the U.S., \"all politics is local\", so in the European M.A. everything has to be taken down to its most irreducable, local, level.

It is clear from your text that the Seigneur of La Trémoille would have outranked any simple castellain who happened to hold Lussac (especially if that castellain held the _castrum_ from him).

But La Trémoille himself might have been outranked by a fellow who held a very, very important châtellenie (though this is unlikely).

Seem confusing?

Then you have taken the first step toward understanding \"Feudalism\".

Christopher Crockett
Local time: 04:20
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 100
Grading comment
Thank you, Christopher, for an extremely helpful answer, and thanks to everyone else.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  xxxBourth
58 mins
  -> Thanks, Alex.

agree  Susan Spier: Wow - what a well researched answer!
2 hrs
  -> Little research, just off the top of my over-educated head. Thanks, blue.

agree  Nick Lingris: Beautifully researched, indeed. Just one thing missing. The OED does have an entry for 'castellany', including 5 examples.
13 hrs
  -> Quite right, Nick. Don't know quite how I missed it in my on-line version. Will post the entry shortly. Thanks.

agree  Graham macLachlan: presumably the king allowed the seigneur to build an extension!
13 hrs
  -> Depends upon the period. Individual castellans were a source of potential competition or even opposition to any Overlord, who had a vested interest in seeing to it that anyone possessing a "castle" or stronghold was a loyal King's Man. Thanks, mac.
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