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Compagnon

English translation: Friend!

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)

French term or phrase:	Compagnon
English translation:	Friend!
Entered by:	Fiona McBrearty

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09:36 Jan 31, 2006

French to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - History / Medieval terminology

French term or phrase: Compagnon

This is for a play set in the 13th century. X, a former Crusader, joins arms with the Cathars. In a battle, X nearly kills his former comrade-in-arms, Y. When Y realises who is about to do him in, he exclaims "Compagnon!".
I thought of "Comrade" but that would be an anachronism as the word only came into use in English in the 16th century. Any ideas anyone???

Fiona McBrearty KudoZ activity Questions: 318 (1 open) (32 closed without grading) Answers: 0
Local time: 20:35

My friend !

Explanation:
I would say simply my friend. Not comrade of course...

Selected response from:

Christiane Lalonde
Canada
Local time: 14:35

Grading comment

thanks for all the fascinating input. I am going to stick with "Friend" but it was a tough choice. "Brother" would have been my next choice followed by... "comrade", I think!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Summary of answers provided

3 +8

companion (or brother)

Jocelyne S

4 +2

Fellow knight

Miranda Joubioux

4 +1

Comrade! [in arms]

Christopher Crockett

4 +1

comment

xxxBourth

3 +1

My friend !

Christiane Lalonde

faithful companion

Jonathan MacKerron

Answers

6 mins confidence:

faithful companion

Explanation:
perhaps a bit osé...

Jonathan MacKerron
Local time: 20:35
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 6

16 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +1

My friend !

Explanation:
I would say simply my friend. Not comrade of course...

Christiane Lalonde
Canada
Local time: 14:35
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

French
PRO pts in category: 4

Grading comment

thanks for all the fascinating input. I am going to stick with "Friend" but it was a tough choice. "Brother" would have been my next choice followed by... "comrade", I think!

Notes to answerer

Asker: I rather like "My friend", or simply "Friend" (perhaps more dramatic impact?)

7 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +8

companion (or brother)

Explanation:
The English "companion" comes from the French, although I don't know the period in which it came into use. I agree that "comrade" is what first comes to mind, but companion (as in fellow companion) could work here if the period fits.

Another idea is "brother", but it has its religious undertones.

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Note added at 18 mins (2006-01-31 09:55:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If you think that "brother" is too risky, there's always the simple "friend". I think that brother would likely be understood, regardless of religious undertones, given the context. HTH.

Jocelyne S
France
Local time: 20:35
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 4

Notes to answerer

Asker: Would they address one another as "companion" though? I think something like "brother" is more natural, although I agree with you about the religious undertones

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)

agree

Cristina Chaplin

1 min

-> Thanks Awana!

agree

Sandra Petch: This comment from my history-mad hubbie: "Brother, as Crusaders and Cathars belonged to some form of "brotherhood"

39 mins

-> Thanks Sandra (and history-mad hubbie too)!

agree

Nikki Scott-Despaigne

57 mins

-> Thanks Nikki!

agree

Rachel Ward: Brother knight! perhaps?

1 hr

-> Thanks Rachel!

agree

Calou

2 hrs

-> Thanks Calou !

agree

emiledgar: yes, companion (or brother) in Christ.

4 hrs

-> Thank you, but the asker wants to avoid a religious connotation, so "in Christ" does not seem too appropriate here.

agree

Miranda Joubioux: yes - see my note - however I wouldn't use brother in this context

5 hrs

-> Interesting - thank you Miranda!

agree

xxxBourth: See def. of "companion" in the context of chivalrous orders.

7 hrs

-> Indeed, thanks Bourth!

3 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): +1

comment

Explanation:
While I have the greatest respect for your desire to avoid anachronism, I wonder if it is not going too far! Just how many people know - or will bother to find out - that "comrade" was not first recorded in English until 1591?

I agree, you can't have them saying things like "Wow, far out, man!" etc. instead of "Mary, mother of God, thou astonishest me, dear friend" [sic?], but would you actually have them saying something akin to the latter? Do you use "you" and "yours" or "ye"/"thee", "thou", and "thine", for instance?

And what about the spelling? Should it not be pre-Chaucerian? "felowe knichte/cniht/etc."???

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Note added at 3 hrs (2006-01-31 12:52:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Besides, it's probably an anachronism to even have them speaking English! Assuming they are English knights, they would probably have been speaking a form of French. "Compagnon" was first recorded in 1080, so you are prob. safe with "companion" as an anglicization.

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Note added at 3 hrs (2006-01-31 13:06:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The knightly usage referred to :

"companion [...] 5. A knight, formerly of any, now of the lowest grade in certain orders. 1568 ..."
SOED

xxxBourth
Local time: 20:35
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 154

Notes to answerer

Asker: You certainly have a point, Bourth, but I think there are degrees of being a stickler! Let's just say I am loathe to fall below level 1 (or 2) of historical accuracy. I feel I can change the form of their speech to make it comprehensible but not go as far as using a word no one at the time would understand.

51 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +2

Fellow knight

Explanation:
OED
Companion 5. A knight, formerly of any of the lowest grade in certain orders.

I seem to remember chaucer using the word with this meaning.
It certainly would correspond to the period.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2006-01-31 11:55:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

a quick google on the terms
crusaders "fellow knight"
show lots of examples.

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Note added at 5 hrs (2006-01-31 15:06:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Following Bourth's comment, I did a double check in the OED (full edition).
The first occurrence of "companion" goes back to 1297. This is its primary meaning.
Companion
1. One who associates with or accompanies another: a mate, a fellow.

I remain convinced that in the given context he is probably a fellow knight. I don't like "fellow" alone, so I'm sticking with what I said.

However, companion certainly would not be wrong!

Miranda Joubioux
Local time: 20:35
Works in field
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 4

4 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): +1

Comrade! [in arms]

Explanation:
Le Robert finds the earliest ancestor of "COMPAGNON" in 1080: "CUMPAINZ", which is, basically, [very] low Latin for someone who breaks bread (_panis_) with (_cum_) someone else.

Interesting, however, that Godefroy doesn't seem to know this "CUMPAINZ".

In any case --and anachronism aside-- the term "comrade-in-arms" is common enough in the anglophone world to dispell the old, cold war connotations of "comrade".

and I'd suggest that it is the former sense that a fellow _in extremis_ might call upon his Comrade-in-arms by calling him "comrade!".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2006-01-31 15:12:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

the OED entry on COMRADE and its instances of use demonstrates its (pre-cold war) associations with the military, from its earlies introduction into English :

a. orig. One who shares the same room, a chamber-fellow, ‘chum’; esp. among soldiers, a tent-fellow, fellow-soldier (also comrade-in-arms); hence gen., an associate in friendship, occupation, fortunes, etc., a close companion, mate, fellow.

1591 GARRARD Art Warre 13 A Souldier in Campe must make choise of two or three or more Camerades.
1592 GREENE Upst. Courtier in Harl. Misc. (Malh.) II. 247 His camerard that bare him companie was a iollie light timberd iacke a napes.
1636 JAMES Iter Lanc. (Chetham Soc.) 76 marg., With such camarades..all our auncient wars were fought.
1656 BLOUNT Glossogr., Camerade, a tent, chamber, or cabin-fellow. 1682 N. O. Boileau's Lutrin III. 24 Night curst her Eyes to see the Camrades march.
1708-21 KERSEY, Camarade or Comrade. 1725 BAILEY Erasm. Colloq. 230 To see my old Camarades.
1599 HARINGTON Nugæ Ant. 33, I was comerade to the Earl of Kildare, and slept both on one pillow.
1599 MINSHEU, Camaráda, a comerade or cabbin-mate souldier.

1596 SHAKES. 1 Hen. IV, IV. i. 96 The..Mad-Cap, Prince of Wales, and his Cumrades, that daft the World aside.
1627 CAPT. SMITH Seaman's Gram. ix. 38 Care would bee had that there be not two Comrades [1626 Accid. comorados] vpon one watch because they may haue the more roome in their Cabbins to rest.
1791 COWPER Iliad IV. 133 His comrades bold Screening him close with shields.
1814 SCOTT Ld. of Isles V. xiv, His comrade's face each warrior saw. 1848 KELLY tr. L. Blanc's Hist. Ten Y. II. 293 The place of his old comrade in arms.

Christopher Crockett
Local time: 14:35
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 96

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Compagnon

English translation: Friend!

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English translation: Friend!

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