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En me renversant, ils n'ont abattu que le tronc de l'arbre de la liberté.....

English translation: "They have only felled the trunk of the tree (of the freedom of the blacks); branches will sprout, f

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18:19 Jul 30, 2004
French to English translations [PRO]
History
French term or phrase: En me renversant, ils n'ont abattu que le tronc de l'arbre de la liberté.....
Full Quote:

"En me renversant, ils n'ont abattu que le tronc de l'arbre de la liberté. Il repoussera par les racines parce qu'elles sont profondes et nombreuses."
General Toussaint Louverture, Hero of Haitian Slave Revolution

Since it's a quote, I'd like the T. to be as literal as possible, with a preference for a temporal proposition rather than the gerund form.

P.S. I have my first draft.
xxxCHENOUMI
English translation:"They have only felled the trunk of the tree (of the freedom of the blacks); branches will sprout, f
Explanation:
Page 223

Madame Toussaint and her son Isaac and her niece were conducted to the Cape, and put on board the Hero. The vessel forthwith set sail for France. It is related that, in fixing, for the last time, his straining eyes on the mountains made memorable by his exploits, Toussaint L'Ouverture exclaimed, ***"They have only felled the trunk of the tree (of the freedom of the blacks); branches will sprout, for the roots are numerous and deep."****

Toussaint L'Ouverture:
A Biography and Autobiography:
Electronic Edition.
Beard, J. R. (John Relly), 1800-1876

Source Description:
(title page) Toussaint L'Ouverture: A Biography and Autobiography
(spine) Toussaint L'Ouverture of Hayti
Rev. John R. Feard, D.D.
372 p., 2 ill.
Boston:
JAMES REDPATH, PUBLISHER, 221 WASHINGTON STREET.
1863.

PREFACE.
"The life which is described in the following pages has both a permanent interest and a permanent value. But the efforts which are now made to effect the abolition of slavery in the United States of America, seem to render the present moment specially fit for the appearance of a memoir of TOUSSAINT L'OUVERTURE. A hope of affording some aid to the sacred cause of freedom, specially as involved in the extinction of slavery, and in the removal of the prejudices on which servitude mainly depends, has induced the author to prepare the present work for the press. ***If apology for such a publication was required, it might be found in the fact that no detailed life of TOUSSAINT L'OUVERTURE is accessible to the English reader, for the only memoir of him which exists in our language has long been out of print.*****

John Relly Beard, 1800-1876. Toussaint L'Ouverture: A Biography ... - [ Traduire cette page ]
Toussaint L'Ouverture: A Biography and Autobiography: Electronic Edition. ... finished transcribing the text. TOUSSAINT L'OUVERTURE: A BIOGRAPHY AND AUTOBIOGRAPHY. ...
docsouth.unc.edu/neh/beard63/beard63.html - 101k



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs 27 mins (2004-07-30 22:46:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Hello Chenoumi,

You may find this 19th-century translation of the following letter of interest.

Page 235

\"GENERAL TOUSSAINT L\'OUVERTURE TO GENERAL BONAPARTE, FIRST CONSUL OF THE FRENCH REPUBLIC.


\"CITIZEN FIRST CONSUL: I will not conceal my faults from you. I have committed some. What man is exempt? I am quite ready to avow them. After the word of honor of the Captain-General who represents the French Government, after a proclamation addressed to the colony, in which he promised to throw the veil of oblivion over the events which had taken place in Saint Domingo, I, as you did on the 18th Brumaire, withdrew into the bosom of my family. Scarcely had a month passed away, when evil-disposed persons, by means of intrigues, effected my ruin with the General-in-chief, by filling his mind with distrust against me. I received a letter from him which ordered me to act in conjunction with General Brunet. I obeyed. Accompanied by two persons, I went to Gonaïves, where I was arrested. They sent me on board the frigate Creole, I know not for what reason, without any other clothes than those I had on. The next day my house was exposed to pillage; my wife and my children were arrested; they had nothing, not even the means to cover themselves.

\"Citizen First Consul: A mother fifty years of age may deserve the indulgence and the kindness of a generous and liberal nation. She has no account to render. I alone ought to be responsible for my conduct to the Government I have served. I have too high an idea of the greatness and the justice of the First Magistrate of the French people, to doubt a moment of its impartiality. I indulge the feeling that the balance in its hands will not incline to one side more than to another. I claim its generosity.


\"Salutations and respect,

\"TOUSSAINT L\'OUVERTURE.\"

When he wrote this high-spirited letter, in which the writer characteristically shows his concern for others more than for himself,--and the tone of which contrasts favorably with that which his oppressor, when fallen, and on the point of quitting Europe for Saint Helena, addressed in true French melodramatic style to the English people,--Toussaint obviously had no idea of the extent of the perfidy to which he was about to fall a victim. He had been seized and carried off, but only, as he thought, that he might be confronted with his maligners, and have a fair trial in France. All he requested, therefore, was an impartial hearing, assured that the even hand of Justice would repair the injuries he had suffered. Little did he then foresee the dreadful end to which he had been destined by the Consul\'s blind ambition.




--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs 34 mins (2004-07-30 22:53:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

TOUSSAINT L\'OUVERTURE: A BIOGRAPHY
AND AUTOBIOGRAPHY. 1 vol. 12mo. pp.
366. With a map of Colonial Hayti and a portrait
of Toussaint. Price, *$1.25.*
This volume contains Dr. Beard\'s biography, revised by an American editor, ****and the \"Mémoires de la Vie du Général Toussaint L\'Ouverture, écrits par lui-même, pouvant servir à l\'histoire de sa vie;\" now first translated into the English language****. No other one volume, in any language, contains an account of Toussaint\'s career, so full and so satisfactory. (Just out.)



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 hrs 7 mins (2004-07-31 15:26:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I have just found another French variant of your quote, in which *des noirs* has been added. This might explain why M. Beard\'s translation -as a matter of fact, I do not know whether he actually translated T.L\'s memoirs or whether he was drawing extensively on a previous translation of his works - included it (provided you are looking for a 19th century, not a 21st century, translation of the quote).

\"En me renversant, on a voulu abattre le tronc de l\'arbre de la liberté *des noirs*, mais il repoussera par ses racines parce qu\'elles sont profondes et nombreuses\"
Toussaint Louverture

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 hrs 28 mins (2004-07-31 15:47:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Guess what ?
I\'ve got a third one, with what seems to be a 20th/21st century translation alongside the quote.

(Statue of Haitian hero \"Le premier des Noirs\", Brigadier General Toussaint Louverture.\" En me renversant, on n\'a abattu *a Saint-Domingue* que le tronc de l\'abre de la Liberte\' des noirs, il repoussera par les racines parce qu\'elles sont profondes et nombreuses.\" \"By overthrowing me, they have only brought down in Saint-Domingue the trunk of the tree of freedom of the blacks, it will grow again by its roots because they are deep an numerous.\")

A Look At Haitian History
1803-2003 200 Years Of Indepedence
By Noe Dorestant, E.E.
Special Independence Edition

Haiti History and Revolution - [ Traduire cette page ]
... brought down in Saint-Domingue the trunk of the tree of freedom of the ... During the first week of January 1801, General Toussaint Louverture left Mirebalais ...
www.heritagekonpa.com/archives/ A%20LOOK%20AT%20HAITIAN%20HISTORY%20FROM%20A%20HAITIAN%20PERSPECTIVE.htm - 32k
Selected response from:

hodierne
France
Local time: 14:42
Grading comment
Thank you very much for these precious references, Hodi. You made me realize that I have quite a lot to read to keep up with historic events as it relates to precolonial times. Thank you all for embarking in this historical journey. Wow, you all made me laugh, and I enjoyed - and appreciated - all your comments and input. Tks Brian. P.S. I wanted to start with "When" only because my text had a restrospective feel to it. But Hodierne is right, TL reportedly pronounced his famous quote right after he was ensnared by French troops and while being deported to "Fort de Joug" (in France). The gerund was totally appropriate and relevant in that context.
Yes Jane, « Ce martyr de la liberté était un G R A N D Homme ! »
I found some very interesting links here http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=%22tree+of+liberty%22+%22Toussaint+Louverture%22. You might be interested in reading them. ;')
Thanks again evbuddy© ~Sandra~
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
5 +4"They have only felled the trunk of the tree (of the freedom of the blacks); branches will sprout, fhodierne
4 +2they cut down only the trunk of the tree of liberty. It will grow again from the roots ...sirthierry
4They overthrew me, chopping down the Liberty Tree at its trunk. But the roots shall regrow, forBaadshah
5 -1By overthrowing me, they cut down the tree of liberty not its rootsJane Lamb-Ruiz
4see explanation
Brian Gaffney
4 -1By overthrowing me, they only cut down the trunk of the tree of liberty...
Richard Benham


Discussion entries: 4





  

Answers


1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
En me renversant, ils n'ont abattu que le tronc de l'arbre de la liberté.....
they cut down only the trunk of the tree of liberty. It will grow again from the roots ...


Explanation:
Je ne pense pas que le poème soit une bonne piste (no offense): dans une déclaration comme celle-ci, l'orateur vise plutot l'image parlante, l'étincelle commune de la rhétorique: here comes the stubborn tree. Something else's got to grow ...what then? --well what you don't know is more ghastly than what you do know.

Now I only changed the emphasis in Richards' translation. I'm not 100 percent secure about the syntax, but I think the stress should fall on "the trunk" ==> just the trunk...not the roots!
Qu'en pensez-vous?

I think it should be understood as a powerful pattern, cause the roots (people) are underground, and they are "deep and many" (ancestors too), -- and nobody knows how many. It's talking about revolution. Toussaint s'addresse à la foule je suppose, peut-ètre au monde entier. et probablement pas au poète.

Yet I didn't know the poem, shame on me! Tks Richard :)

sirthierry
Local time: 14:42
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Richard Benham: The relevant bit of yours is the same as mine. You will note that, in referring to the poem, I was responding totraviata's comment. I am skeptical of the "Liberty Tree" suggestion, and would regard "tree of liberty" as safer.
16 hrs

neutral  Jane Lamb-Ruiz: trunk of the tree of liberty is heavy and ungainly
17 hrs

agree  xxxsarahl
22 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

14 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
En me renversant, ils n'ont abattu que le tronc de l'arbre de la liberté.....
see explanation


Explanation:
I like your own first translation, Chenoumi - "When they ..." etc. It's strong and direct.

Brian Gaffney
Ireland
Local time: 13:42
Native speaker of: English
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

19 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): -1
En me renversant, ils n'ont abattu que le tronc de l'arbre de la liberté.....
By overthrowing me, they cut down the tree of liberty not its roots


Explanation:
Literal translation does not exist....word for word translation makes no sense. To render hommage to a great man, MAKE HIS WORDS GREAT.

translation is about meaning...the core meaning to render this make this sentence powerful would not be: cut down the trunk

the opposition is TREE:ROOTS not trunk of tree...

you fell a tree, cut down a tree in English..not the trunk!

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Note added at 19 hrs 51 mins (2004-07-31 14:10:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

OR

In overthrowing me, they have felled the TREE OF LIBERTY NOT ITS ROOTS...

That is a strong, synecdochal translation of the image....



Jane Lamb-Ruiz
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in PortuguesePortuguese
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Richard Benham: The same argument applies in French : one always says "abattre un arbre", never (except figurateively, as here), "abattre le tronc". He has deliberately used an unidiomatic collocation, and it works just as well (for natives) in English. "Homage" in Eng.
11 mins
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11 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
En me renversant, ils n'ont abattu que le tronc de l'arbre de la liberté.....
By overthrowing me, they only cut down the trunk of the tree of liberty...


Explanation:
Or, to avoid the gerund, "When they overthrew me,...", but this is less literal.

My version works about as well in English as the original does in French, which is not very.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 mins (2004-07-30 18:40:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Or \"they cut down only the trunk of ...\"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 27 mins (2004-07-30 18:47:09 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

\"Liberty Tree\" appears (from Googling) to be a poem by Thoomas Paine. So I think it depends whether you (Chenoumi) think Toussaint was making an intentional allusion to the poem or not. If not, I\'d avoid \"liberty tree\", as it is less idiomatic than \"tree of liberty\". If so, maybe capitalize, \"Liberty Tree\".

But you\'re the Haitian; so you\'re more likely to know whether the reference was intended.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 39 mins (2004-07-30 18:58:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I just checked; it seems Paine wrote \"Liberty Tree\" in 1775, and Napoleon, that well-known champion of liberty, kicked out Toussaint in 1802, and the latter died in 1803. So there is some possibility the poem was known to him, but I have no idea whether it was translated into French and how much circulation it had in the Francophone world by 1802.

Good luck, anyway.

PS Here\'s a reference for the poem:http://www.4literature.net/Thomas_Paine/Liberty_Tree/

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 hrs 7 mins (2004-07-31 13:26:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If this is something that he is supposed to have said immediately after being deposed, the tense needs to be different:
\"By/in overthrowing me, they have cut down only the trunk of the tree of liberty,...\"
It won\'t work without the gerund. My answer was based on the assumption it was something he wrote later.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 hrs 23 mins (2004-07-31 15:43:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Minor quible: it is actually not possible to cut down the roots of a tree; so it might be better to write \"remove\" or \"destroy\". The latter is more dramatic, but, if TL is referring to himself, he can\'t have been destroyed just yet (although he was certainly removed from power and the island).

So, how about:
\"When they overthrew me, they removed only the trunk of the tree of liberty ...\".

Of course, if you want to be more literal, you can\'t say this, although \"destroy\" is one of the possible translations of \"abattre\" (when applied to animals...).

BTW I would like to claim priority for the idea of putting \"only\" immediately before \"teh trunk\"> Check the time of my first Note... ;-)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 hrs 25 mins (2004-07-31 15:44:34 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

(And you can\'t fell the roots of a tree either.)

Richard Benham
France
Local time: 14:42
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 12

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Martine Brault: In America the common expression is "Liberty Tree", which could be used here.
7 mins
  -> It doesn't mean anything to me. It depends whether you want to be US-specific.//Thanks for your support.

disagree  Jane Lamb-Ruiz: cut down the trunk?? don't think that is very good in English
19 hrs
  -> Well, that's a relief!
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4 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +4
En me renversant, ils n'ont abattu que le tronc de l'arbre de la liberté.....
"They have only felled the trunk of the tree (of the freedom of the blacks); branches will sprout, f


Explanation:
Page 223

Madame Toussaint and her son Isaac and her niece were conducted to the Cape, and put on board the Hero. The vessel forthwith set sail for France. It is related that, in fixing, for the last time, his straining eyes on the mountains made memorable by his exploits, Toussaint L'Ouverture exclaimed, ***"They have only felled the trunk of the tree (of the freedom of the blacks); branches will sprout, for the roots are numerous and deep."****

Toussaint L'Ouverture:
A Biography and Autobiography:
Electronic Edition.
Beard, J. R. (John Relly), 1800-1876

Source Description:
(title page) Toussaint L'Ouverture: A Biography and Autobiography
(spine) Toussaint L'Ouverture of Hayti
Rev. John R. Feard, D.D.
372 p., 2 ill.
Boston:
JAMES REDPATH, PUBLISHER, 221 WASHINGTON STREET.
1863.

PREFACE.
"The life which is described in the following pages has both a permanent interest and a permanent value. But the efforts which are now made to effect the abolition of slavery in the United States of America, seem to render the present moment specially fit for the appearance of a memoir of TOUSSAINT L'OUVERTURE. A hope of affording some aid to the sacred cause of freedom, specially as involved in the extinction of slavery, and in the removal of the prejudices on which servitude mainly depends, has induced the author to prepare the present work for the press. ***If apology for such a publication was required, it might be found in the fact that no detailed life of TOUSSAINT L'OUVERTURE is accessible to the English reader, for the only memoir of him which exists in our language has long been out of print.*****

John Relly Beard, 1800-1876. Toussaint L'Ouverture: A Biography ... - [ Traduire cette page ]
Toussaint L'Ouverture: A Biography and Autobiography: Electronic Edition. ... finished transcribing the text. TOUSSAINT L'OUVERTURE: A BIOGRAPHY AND AUTOBIOGRAPHY. ...
docsouth.unc.edu/neh/beard63/beard63.html - 101k



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs 27 mins (2004-07-30 22:46:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Hello Chenoumi,

You may find this 19th-century translation of the following letter of interest.

Page 235

\"GENERAL TOUSSAINT L\'OUVERTURE TO GENERAL BONAPARTE, FIRST CONSUL OF THE FRENCH REPUBLIC.


\"CITIZEN FIRST CONSUL: I will not conceal my faults from you. I have committed some. What man is exempt? I am quite ready to avow them. After the word of honor of the Captain-General who represents the French Government, after a proclamation addressed to the colony, in which he promised to throw the veil of oblivion over the events which had taken place in Saint Domingo, I, as you did on the 18th Brumaire, withdrew into the bosom of my family. Scarcely had a month passed away, when evil-disposed persons, by means of intrigues, effected my ruin with the General-in-chief, by filling his mind with distrust against me. I received a letter from him which ordered me to act in conjunction with General Brunet. I obeyed. Accompanied by two persons, I went to Gonaïves, where I was arrested. They sent me on board the frigate Creole, I know not for what reason, without any other clothes than those I had on. The next day my house was exposed to pillage; my wife and my children were arrested; they had nothing, not even the means to cover themselves.

\"Citizen First Consul: A mother fifty years of age may deserve the indulgence and the kindness of a generous and liberal nation. She has no account to render. I alone ought to be responsible for my conduct to the Government I have served. I have too high an idea of the greatness and the justice of the First Magistrate of the French people, to doubt a moment of its impartiality. I indulge the feeling that the balance in its hands will not incline to one side more than to another. I claim its generosity.


\"Salutations and respect,

\"TOUSSAINT L\'OUVERTURE.\"

When he wrote this high-spirited letter, in which the writer characteristically shows his concern for others more than for himself,--and the tone of which contrasts favorably with that which his oppressor, when fallen, and on the point of quitting Europe for Saint Helena, addressed in true French melodramatic style to the English people,--Toussaint obviously had no idea of the extent of the perfidy to which he was about to fall a victim. He had been seized and carried off, but only, as he thought, that he might be confronted with his maligners, and have a fair trial in France. All he requested, therefore, was an impartial hearing, assured that the even hand of Justice would repair the injuries he had suffered. Little did he then foresee the dreadful end to which he had been destined by the Consul\'s blind ambition.




--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs 34 mins (2004-07-30 22:53:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

TOUSSAINT L\'OUVERTURE: A BIOGRAPHY
AND AUTOBIOGRAPHY. 1 vol. 12mo. pp.
366. With a map of Colonial Hayti and a portrait
of Toussaint. Price, *$1.25.*
This volume contains Dr. Beard\'s biography, revised by an American editor, ****and the \"Mémoires de la Vie du Général Toussaint L\'Ouverture, écrits par lui-même, pouvant servir à l\'histoire de sa vie;\" now first translated into the English language****. No other one volume, in any language, contains an account of Toussaint\'s career, so full and so satisfactory. (Just out.)



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 hrs 7 mins (2004-07-31 15:26:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I have just found another French variant of your quote, in which *des noirs* has been added. This might explain why M. Beard\'s translation -as a matter of fact, I do not know whether he actually translated T.L\'s memoirs or whether he was drawing extensively on a previous translation of his works - included it (provided you are looking for a 19th century, not a 21st century, translation of the quote).

\"En me renversant, on a voulu abattre le tronc de l\'arbre de la liberté *des noirs*, mais il repoussera par ses racines parce qu\'elles sont profondes et nombreuses\"
Toussaint Louverture

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 hrs 28 mins (2004-07-31 15:47:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Guess what ?
I\'ve got a third one, with what seems to be a 20th/21st century translation alongside the quote.

(Statue of Haitian hero \"Le premier des Noirs\", Brigadier General Toussaint Louverture.\" En me renversant, on n\'a abattu *a Saint-Domingue* que le tronc de l\'abre de la Liberte\' des noirs, il repoussera par les racines parce qu\'elles sont profondes et nombreuses.\" \"By overthrowing me, they have only brought down in Saint-Domingue the trunk of the tree of freedom of the blacks, it will grow again by its roots because they are deep an numerous.\")

A Look At Haitian History
1803-2003 200 Years Of Indepedence
By Noe Dorestant, E.E.
Special Independence Edition

Haiti History and Revolution - [ Traduire cette page ]
... brought down in Saint-Domingue the trunk of the tree of freedom of the ... During the first week of January 1801, General Toussaint Louverture left Mirebalais ...
www.heritagekonpa.com/archives/ A%20LOOK%20AT%20HAITIAN%20HISTORY%20FROM%20A%20HAITIAN%20PERSPECTIVE.htm - 32k

hodierne
France
Local time: 14:42
Native speaker of: French
PRO pts in category: 8
Grading comment
Thank you very much for these precious references, Hodi. You made me realize that I have quite a lot to read to keep up with historic events as it relates to precolonial times. Thank you all for embarking in this historical journey. Wow, you all made me laugh, and I enjoyed - and appreciated - all your comments and input. Tks Brian. P.S. I wanted to start with "When" only because my text had a restrospective feel to it. But Hodierne is right, TL reportedly pronounced his famous quote right after he was ensnared by French troops and while being deported to "Fort de Joug" (in France). The gerund was totally appropriate and relevant in that context.
Yes Jane, « Ce martyr de la liberté était un G R A N D Homme ! »
I found some very interesting links here http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=%22tree+of+liberty%22+%22Toussaint+Louverture%22. You might be interested in reading them. ;')
Thanks again evbuddy© ~Sandra~

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Céline Godinho
49 mins
  -> Thanks

agree  Vicky Papaprodromou
3 hrs
  -> Thanks

agree  Martine Brault
16 hrs
  -> Thanks

agree  Sophieanne
1 day17 hrs
  -> Thanks Sophieanne
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

1 day6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
En me renversant, ils n'ont abattu que le tronc de l'arbre de la liberté.....
They overthrew me, chopping down the Liberty Tree at its trunk. But the roots shall regrow, for


Explanation:
i think the syntax needed some shifting

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 6 hrs 58 mins (2004-08-01 01:17:29 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

also maybe \"base\" would be better than trunk.

Baadshah
Local time: 14:42
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
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