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la vie seigneuriale

English translation: the life led by Lords / the aristocracy

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15:58 Aug 1, 2004
French to English translations [PRO]
Social Sciences - History / medieval times
French term or phrase: la vie seigneuriale
Does that translate into Seigniorial Life?
My New World brain is just not ticking over this sunday morn
MTIA
NL
NancyLynn
Canada
Local time: 22:07
English translation:the life led by Lords / the aristocracy
Explanation:
Put some Coke into your New World brain, Nancy Lynn, that always helps ;)

HTH
Selected response from:

Conor McAuley
France
Local time: 04:07
Grading comment
Thanks so much to all. When I asked the question, I certainly had no idea it would spark such a lively debate! Indeed choosing the contextually appropriate answer is difficult. Fortunately I had some time, so I used it to let everyone cool off...;-) But with a few gallons of Coke, as Conor suggested, I came to the conclusion that The Life led by the Aristocracy suits the text best. After all, it's the source text I owe my allegiance to, right? Other answers may be added to the glossary independent of my choice, so feel free to populate the KOG for future term seekers who may use them for their purposes.
Thanks again!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
3 +8seigniorial...lordly, stately...
Sophieanne
5 +4The Aristocratic Life
Christopher Crockett
2 +6Not for gradinghodierne
4 +3The life of the Seigneurs
Dr Andrew Read
3 +2the life led by Lords / the aristocracy
Conor McAuley
3 +1courtly life
Parrot
3 +1Life of the nobility OR aristocracyBaadshah
3 +1the life of Medievil Lords & Ladies / the life of Pre-Renaissance Lords & Ladies
Allan Jeffs
4the life of the seigneurial aristocracytranslatol
4 -1the manorial life
Mats Wiman
4 -1lordly life (NFG)
Richard Benham
2"Lording it up"
egunn
5 -5Feudal lifeJane Lamb-Ruiz


Discussion entries: 10





  

Answers


10 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
the life led by Lords / the aristocracy


Explanation:
Put some Coke into your New World brain, Nancy Lynn, that always helps ;)

HTH

Conor McAuley
France
Local time: 04:07
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
Thanks so much to all. When I asked the question, I certainly had no idea it would spark such a lively debate! Indeed choosing the contextually appropriate answer is difficult. Fortunately I had some time, so I used it to let everyone cool off...;-) But with a few gallons of Coke, as Conor suggested, I came to the conclusion that The Life led by the Aristocracy suits the text best. After all, it's the source text I owe my allegiance to, right? Other answers may be added to the glossary independent of my choice, so feel free to populate the KOG for future term seekers who may use them for their purposes.
Thanks again!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Jane Lamb-Ruiz: life on the manor...manor life.....la vie des seigneurs is what you have translated
1 hr
  -> You can always be relied upon for "constructive" criticism

agree  1964
5 hrs
  -> Thanks Tayfun!

agree  DGK T-I
1 day21 hrs
  -> Thanks Dr
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4 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +8
seigniorial...lordly, stately...


Explanation:
as you said...

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Note added at 4 mins (2004-08-01 16:02:55 GMT)
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a seigniorial life

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Note added at 5 mins (2004-08-01 16:04:00 GMT)
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the stately life...

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Note added at 16 mins (2004-08-01 16:14:51 GMT)
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migration - [ Traduire cette page ]
... English speakers, put-off by the very cultural facets of seigniorial life that
attracted the Catholic French, opted to start their farms elsewhere. ...
hometown.aol.com/djkboysrus/mig1.html - 20k - En cache - Pages similaires

Tapestries Direct - History of Tapestries - [ Traduire cette page ]
... Typical later medieval designs were of seigniorial life, allegorical
scenes and mille fleurs tapestries. The latter were characterised ...
www.tapestriesdirect.com/history.html - 16k - En cache - Pages similaires

LeGoff Inglese - [ Traduire cette page ]
... Carpaccio, St. Ursula’s Dream – photo (Accademia Gallery, Venice)
28 Tapestry of seigniorial life : Bathing, Cl. 2180 (fin XVe ...
testcomuni.ltt.it/.../page.asp?IDCategoria=1762& IDSezione=7432&IDOggetto=6277&Tipo=GENERICO - 19k - En cache - Pages similaires

The Crossing - AFTERWORD - [ Traduire cette page ]
... The lonely mountain cabin; the seigniorial life of the tide-water; the foothills
and mountains which the Scotch-Irish have marked for their own to this day ...
www.worldwideschool.org/library/ books/hst/northamerican/TheCrossing/chap50.html - 20k - En cache - Pages similaires



Sophieanne
United States
Local time: 19:07
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench, Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  irat56: Lordly or Stately, yes!
2 mins
  -> Thanks... and yes, I like that too

neutral  Richard Benham: "Seigniorial" doesn't strike me as an English word, and it's not in my dic...I'd avoid it like the plague.//"Lordly" is fine.//Why bother with a pretentious and inaccurate word when "lordly" is available and OK?
2 mins
  -> Thanks for all your comments... and spelling seigniorial the right way. I suggest you get a new dictionary (reference to your first comment). The word is neither pretentious, nor inaccurate. Is it so hard to say "I had never seen this word before"?

agree  hodierne: The word *seigneurial* does exist in English derives from the Latin older, elder. However, I wld not pick *stately*, as seigneurial relates to a feudal lord, not a state (plus, our idea of statehood would hardly have registered with medieval minds).
21 mins
  -> Thanks, Hodierne. Good point about "stately"

agree  Vicky Papaprodromou
28 mins
  -> Thanks, Vicky

agree  Iolanta Vlaykova Paneva
35 mins
  -> Thanks Yolanta

disagree  Jane Lamb-Ruiz: it's feudal life or life in feudal times or manor life....
50 mins
  -> Seigniorial life is fine in the context

agree  Graham macLachlan: "seigneurial life" seems to me the most appropriate; my dictionaries seem to prefer 'seigneur'; 7 times more google hits too
2 hrs
  -> thanks, and I agree, the original French word might be better

agree  1964
3 hrs
  -> thank you

agree  xxxsarahl: attention, stately ça veut dire cossu !!!
10 hrs
  -> Thanks Sarah

agree  Brian Gaffney: I agree with mactrad - "seigneurial" is the more common spelling. And the term is just as correct in English as it is in French see Collins def.
15 hrs
  -> Thank you

agree  Georget
17 hrs
  -> merci
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25 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
the life of Medievil Lords & Ladies / the life of Pre-Renaissance Lords & Ladies


Explanation:
The word 'seigneurial' does exist in English! It is used to refer to 'châteaux' or 'domaines' -> seigneurial manors

'lordly' et/ou 'stately' décrivent le luxe ou l'allure de l'époque.
But 'the lordly life' doesn't sound right.

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Note added at 28 mins (2004-08-01 16:26:35 GMT)
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Maybe: the life of Medival nobility

Allan Jeffs
France
Local time: 04:07
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  hodierne: Or else, gentry life, life in a gentry household. There is another French expression that says: la vie de château.
3 mins
  -> Thanks Hodierne

neutral  Richard Benham: Some of them were more than just medi-evil; they were mega-evil!
14 mins
  -> Ha ha. You're right, they were!

neutral  Jane Lamb-Ruiz: Feudal life..for serf's sake///YES, the life of medieval nobility may be absolutely right. I missed it. Your other answer is wrong but depending on the era, it could be this. The Life of Nobles...funny you say maybe...
29 mins
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37 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
lordly life (NFG)


Explanation:
This is one of Sopieanne's suggestions, and I am not trying to pinch her points. I just need space to argue against her other suggestions.

"Seigniorial" is a variant on "seigneurial" and doesn't even have the advantage of any etymological justification. "Seigneurial" refers specifically to feudal landlords, and so it might be OK if that were the intention, but I don't think it is. It looks (although some context would help) as though it's just intended to suggest a life of luxury.

In this sense, "lordly" is the idiomatic word in English.

"Stately" is not used to describe a life of luxury, but generally refers to a person's bearing or demeanour.

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Note added at 42 mins (2004-08-01 16:40:14 GMT)
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In reference to one of the example in Sophieanne\'s answer, I would add that if (in the context) the word is being used specifically to refer to the life of a \"seigneur\", then \"seigneurial\" is the only way to go.

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Note added at 1 hr 9 mins (2004-08-01 17:07:37 GMT)
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In reference to “feudal”, the usual way to say this in French is, perhaps unsurprisingly, “féodal”.

The “Dictionnaire Encyclopédique Universel” gives two definitions of “seigeurial”: “1. Qui dépendait d’un seigneur, qui appartenait à un seigneur: Droits seigneuriaux. 2. Litt. Digne de seigneur: Train de vie seigneurial”


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Note added at 1 hr 20 mins (2004-08-01 17:18:14 GMT)
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Given the context (it is noteworthy that all these activities would seem to be activities of the leisured classes), I think either \"seigneurial life\" or \"lordly life\" could work. It rather depends how much you want to emphasize the historical period. I mean that, by using \"seigneurial\", you nail it down to a period of history, butin a sense this is artificial. At the time the tapestry was created, the only lords were the feudal lords; the later system of nobility wasn\'t in force. So calling it \"seigneurial life\" might be like using \"BC\" or \"BCE\" in translating a text written in that time....

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Note added at 1 hr 34 mins (2004-08-01 17:32:38 GMT)
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\"Manor life\"/\"life on the manor\"...the word \"manor\" is ambiguous in English. It may either refer to the lord\'s residence alone or to the whole of his estate, including the bits where the serfs live.... So it\'s best avoided.

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Note added at 1 hr 35 mins (2004-08-01 17:33:23 GMT)
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\"Sorry I missed out an \"n\" above. Given that some people around here seem to make a fuss about obvious typos.

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Note added at 2 hrs 9 mins (2004-08-01 18:07:27 GMT)
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Sophieanne: I did not say the word \"seigneurial\" did not exist, either in French or in English. I offered definitions only in French. I did object to the spelling \"seigniorial\", which is less common than \"seigneurial\" and has nothing to recommend it.

At no stage did I paste in any of your definitions.

I will, however, paste in the first sentence of my own answer:
This is one of Sopieanne\'s suggestions, and I am not trying to pinch her points. I just need space to argue against her other suggestions.

The only thing that happened to change my suggestion was the advent of some context. Given the context, I thought \"seigneurial\" could work, and so I added a comment to that effect.

I really think it is quite churlish to complain about someone who starts by acknowledging your suggestion and specifically disowning any intention to pinch your points.

Richard Benham
France
Local time: 04:07
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 12

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Jane Lamb-Ruiz: oh please Richard.....Know thy French and Know thy history..this is the way to say Feudal,
18 mins
  -> Excuse me...what language is your comment supposed to be written in?

neutral  Sophieanne: So, after saying a word does NOT exist, you give extensive definitions? Then, you use one of my answers and just paste it... not a very seigniorial attitude, I would say... Sans rancune.
1 hr
  -> See my comments above. And, by the way, how can you accuse me of pinching your suggestion and then disagree with me? Do you also disagree with yourself?//Did you even read my answer before abusing me for nothing?

neutral  xxxsarahl: Richard, calm down! I have seigniorial in my webster, I have to agree with Sophie 100% on this.
10 hrs
  -> I am not denying that. Other words based on "seignior-" are in my Collins, too, but "seigneurial" is still better (and is in more dictionaries!).
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
the life of the seigneurial aristocracy


Explanation:
'Seigneurial': relating to a feudal lord, especially in France (Collins English Dictionary).

translatol
Local time: 03:07
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Richard Benham: Feudalism and aristocracy are two different systems.//As you like it.
27 mins
  -> OK. How about 'rulers' or 'lords' or 'gentry'?

neutral  Jane Lamb-Ruiz: noble...life of nobles...nobility..noble life. I finally found it...not seigneurial except for historical mongraphs, IMO
1 day1 hr
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
the manorial life


Explanation:
Main Entry:seignorial
Variant:also seignioral or seigniorial or seignoral
Function:adjective

Etymology:obsolete English seignor seignior (from Middle English seignour) or English seignior + -ial or -al

: of, relating to, or befitting a seignior : MANORIAL
(Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary)

Mats Wiman
Sweden
Local time: 04:07
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in SwedishSwedish
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  translatol: Has the advantage of compactness, but doesn't make it clear (despite Merriam-Webster) that it's the life of the lords and not of the serfs in the present context (poetry, arms, etc.),
15 mins
  -> Do serfs live in manors? 'manorial' refers to people who inhabit manors.

neutral  Christopher Crockett: Have to agree with translatol, here. It's not scenes of peasants plowing, etc., after all. Plus, the High Aristocracy pictured here are *way* beyond the level of mere "lords of the manor."
22 mins
  -> See above

disagree  Jane Lamb-Ruiz: Manor Life and I already said that..you should have read my answer...anyway, after she added information, its: noble life
1 day41 mins

neutral  DGK T-I: to Matt(pt of info):serfs,lords of the manor other classes all lived on&in the manor-very much the term for the basic medieval feudal unit which embraced them all -lds of the manor(if that only)would usually be rel.lowly//Different meaning -post medieval!
1 day18 hrs
  -> Dear colleague, 'courtly' does not refer to the servants just as little as 'manorial' does. The TV-series "Of manor born" is not about the servants and the gardeners, it's about the master/mistress.
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15 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
Life of the nobility OR aristocracy


Explanation:
i know in england nobility could be considered as higher ranked than lords, in which case aristocracy might just do.

Baadshah
Local time: 04:07
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  DGK T-I: in fairness(talking about history)nobility, aristocracy and lords all conjure up quite a grand image (great lords) in English unless they are qualified with expressions like 'minor','lord of the manor'(if only that),'petty',etc ("he lived like a lord")
1 day12 hrs
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16 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
"Lording it up"


Explanation:
Just joking

egunn
Local time: 03:07
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Christopher Crockett: Scenes similar to the one in the tapestry we are dealing with sometimes depict "The Labors of the Months" --September or October usually has peasants knocking acorns off of forest trees to feed & fatten the pigs for winter. Now, *that* is "Larding it up".
9 hrs
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17 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +3
The life of the Seigneurs


Explanation:
Am *not* gonna get into the fight, but if the art in question only represents posh people in France, how about this suggestion? Sometimes it can be nice to keep the local flavour.

Yours in peace and humility, etc etc ;-)

Dr Andrew Read
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:07
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  xxxsarahl: good idea. peace and love, brother!
5 hrs
  -> If you're going / To San Fran-cisco / Be sure to wear / Some flowers in your hair... ;-) Pass the pipe of peace!

agree  irat56: Seems O.K. by me too, and calms down!
5 hrs

agree  Sophieanne: sounds good
7 hrs
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5 peer agreement (net): +6
Not for grading


Explanation:
Hello Jane,

See vie féodale versus vie seigneuriale.

Plus, click on the last link (Musée de Cluny). La vie seigneuriale is the name of a tapestry and Nancy Lynn has been working on the subject of Cluny for a while now. It definitely evokes a life of leisure and recreational activities.

Société féodale et littérature > conclusion
Les œuvres que nous avons étudiées illustrent bien dans plusieurs domaines, l’organisation de la vie féodale mais présentent des passages imaginaires ...
www.ac-reunion.fr/pedagogie/ lyvergerp/FRANCAIS/TPE/SoFeo/Concl.htm

Patrimoines Buissonniers - une exposition pour comprendre
... Et ceci à travers: La vie religieuse. La vie féodale. La vie rurale. L'eau domestique et sacrée. La géographie. La flore, la faune. Les noms de personnes. ...
www.chez.com/patrimoinesbuissonniers/ fichiers/exposition.htm

Séminaire du LAMOP -Université de Paris I
... la Tapisserie de Bayeux. 14 mars Michel Parisse : La vie féodale : le Sachsenspiegel au XIIIe siècle. 28 mars Madame Lemé (professeur ...
lamop.univ-paris1.fr/lamop/LAMOP/lamopSh.html - 65k

CD-ROM "Initiation à l'art roman"
... Société: vie féodale: France: (serfs - seigneurs - fiefs- tapisserie de Bayeux = départ des troupes normandes de Guillaume pour l'Angleterre). ...
www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/ nvaget/230/cd-rom%20art%20roman.html - 5k

Vie seigneuriale
... Voici un détail de la tapisserie de la Vie seigneuriale illustrant
les loisirs d'un seigneur et de ses dames. Tenture de la vie ...
www.culture.gouv.fr/cluny/quoi/tap_vie.htm - 8k

la vie seigneuriale
www.culture.gouv.fr/cluny/quoi/quoi_1.htm - 1k - 30 juil 2004

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Note added at 1 hr 35 mins (2004-08-01 17:34:04 GMT)
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I was just alluding to the fact that not everyone living in feudal times, that is, in a society ruled by the prevailing social system in Medieval Europe, lived *la vie seigneuriale*, not even minor members of the nobility, who were virtually as poor as their serfs.

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Note added at 1 hr 38 mins (2004-08-01 17:37:02 GMT)
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Oops, should read: in a society ruled by the social system prevailing in Medieval Europe, and namely, feudalism, .......

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Note added at 19 hrs 19 mins (2004-08-02 11:17:17 GMT)
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You know what\'s the beauty of it all ?
Right beneath the tapestry - link: www.culture.gouv.fr/cluny/quoi/tap_vie.htm -
there is a \"en savoir plus\" button, and guess what\'s written in the box ?

Tenture de la vie seigneuriale: *scènes galantes*
*Pays-Bas du Sud*, 1er quart du 16e siècle!!!

So, it is early Renaissance in the Southern Netherlands!!!!
So much so for our desparate feudal quest..........

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Note added at 19 hrs 28 mins (2004-08-02 11:26:37 GMT)
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Although it could refer to the where and when of the tapestry being manufactured.

hodierne
France
Local time: 04:07
Native speaker of: French
PRO pts in category: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Jane Lamb-Ruiz: Please...I know my French ....and seigneuriale is not landed gentry...it's either MANOR LIFE or Life of Lords ..Do you know how much history I have read in French..franchement
6 mins
  -> Yes, you are right about gentry. It is a category below the nobility. My point was not to question your ability to grasp the complexities of the French language. Just saying that - see my note above

agree  Allan Jeffs: Thank you for proving beyond a shadow of doubt that Jane is wrong here.
23 mins
  -> Thanks Allan, but it wasn't my intention to prove or disprove anything here. It's vacation time (at least, for me) and we all get carried away.....

agree  Sophieanne: Thanks Hodierne, for your erudition and diplomacy. :-)
39 mins
  -> Merci Sophie.....-))) (C'est comment le sourire ?)

agree  Christopher Crockett: All good points and distinctions, including the *massive* understatement about "not everyone living in feudal times...lived *la vie seigneuriale*," My rule of thumb is that the nobility/aristocracy constituted about 3% of the total population.
1 hr
  -> Thank you Christopher.

agree  xxxsarahl
9 hrs
  -> Thank you Sarahl

agree  Brian Gaffney: Absolutely.
14 hrs
  -> Thank you Brian

agree  irat56: I totally agree, and sorry for Jane, but I, too know my French and History!
22 hrs
  -> Merci irat57
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20 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
courtly life


Explanation:
One alternative, based on "grooming, hunting, reading, poetry, singing, chivalrous conversation, etc as well as arms, armour and items related to war and cavalry". This is in medieval context.

The implications will change when talking about Louis XIV and later ("modern" centralised monarchic government).

Hope it helps. Greetings from Buenos Aires. Be back on Friday. Bises...

Parrot
Spain
Local time: 04:07
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Christopher Crockett: Mmmmm... these folks *might* be part of some "court" (royal or otherwise), but it isn't really "courtly life" which is being represented. Rather "the recreational life of courtiers" (if they are, indeed that). Best stick to what we have for sure.
1 hr

agree  Jane Lamb-Ruiz: yes very good
7 hrs
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +4
The Aristocratic Life


Explanation:
A re-working of Conor's good suggestion.

I have less than no interest in getting into a pissing match, so I just skimmed over most of the verbage generated here and will ignore most of it.

To my (art historically trained) eye there is nothing in Nancy's tapestry which suggests to my (historically trained) mind anything specifically "feudal" there.

And --more to the point-- the text requiring translation does *not* read "La vie féodale".

Nancy's job, as I understand it, is to translate the "captions" on her website as they are given. This sometimes demands that, for clarity's sake in English, certain terms which exist in French but not in English be "expanded" a bit.

However, that is not the case here.

"La vie seigneuriale" => "La vie des seigneurs" => "The life of the aristocracy[/nobility]".

In the case of the tapestry in question, as Hodierne has quite correctly pointed out, we are looking at the idle occupations of the very *highest* levels of the "nobility", which I believe is best rendered by the more exotic, hi-toned English term "aristocracy" (stolen from the French, who stole it from the Greeks).

Although "seigneurial" *does* exist in English (see the OED entry below), I wouldn't use it here, since it :

1) isn't really in the common vocabulary of most Anglophones ;

b) has changed meanings --taken on much more figurative senses-- in the last 100 or so years (see the instances of use from the OED below).

As it happens, there has been, in the last 25 years, quite a bit of contraversy about the very term "feudalism" among *professional* medievalists, some (quite good ones) bringing into question its very validity, seeing it as a modern concept or construct (historians are big on "constructs") which doesn't actually apply to any middlevil Reality on the ground.

My own view is that if "feudalism" didn't exist we'd have to invent it; but that opinion didn't go over too well on the Medieval History discussion list I floated it on, so I let it slide.

In any case, such arcane distinctions need not concern us here; suffice it to say that "seigneurial" does *not* mean the same thing as "féodal/feudal" --since we have historical instances of social/political structures being one without being the other-- and, above all, Nancy's text reads as it reads.


Listen *UP* --The OED, speaketh:

seigneurial seiniu<e>.rial, a. Also erron. 7 signeural, 8-9 seigneural. [a. Fr. seigneurial, f. seigneur, influenced by seigneurie (Hatz.-Darm.). Cf. seignoral. ] Pertaining to a seigneur; sometimes used in wider sense = seignorial. Also fig., lordly; authoritative.

1656 Heylin Surv. France iv. ii. 174 So did the Vidames disclaim their relation to the Bishop, and became Signieural or honorary also.

1673 Temple Observ. United Prov. i. 7 Seigneurial Jurisdiction over the Inhabitants.

1757 Burke Abridgm. Eng. Hist. iii. vi. Wks. 1812 V. 650 From them [the clergy] were often taken the bailiffs of the seigneurial courts.

1792 A. Young Trav. France I. 259, I was sorry to see, at the village, a carcan, or seigneural standard, erected, to which a chain and heavy iron collar are fastened, as a mark of the lordly arrogance of the nobility, and the slavery of the people.

1834 K. H. Digby Mores Cath. v. vi. 156 In the seigneural chapel of the church of Mery-sur-Oise.

1865 Q. Rev. July 17 There was a something repugnant to the just pride of the Highland gentleman in the very idea of parting with his seigneurial rights, even for a season.

1887 Spectator 5 Nov. 1514/2 Canada could never have made much real progress under the seigneurial system.

1970 Times Lit. Suppl. 23 July 787/2 In the United States, Linguistics has long derived authority from the presence there of the two most seigneurial of living linguists, Roman Jakobson and Noam Chomsky.

1972 A. Friedman in Cox & Dyson 20th-Cent. Mind I. xii. 428 Conrad's irony is heavy and fuming, his seigneurial distance from his madmen...woefully great.

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Note added at 22 hrs 17 mins (2004-08-02 14:15:58 GMT)
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Re Nancy\'s latest note:

Yes, it looks like they are using the tapestry as an entré into the exposition of various of the \"minor arts\" artifacts in the museum\'s collection --placing the cursor over the \"?\" at the bottom lights up those objects (lady\'s belt, jewelbox, knife, etc.) and clicking on them opens another page devoted to the particular example in the collection.

However, the caption does read \"un détail de **la** [rather than \"une\"] tapisserie de la Vie seigneuriale\", so it is a kind of title.

Passing the mouse over \"En savoir +\" in in the lower right gives us the details of the tapestry (here styled simply a \"tenture\", for some reason**), with the caption : \"Wall hanging representing scenes from the leisurely pastimes of the aristocratic gentry\" (stealing \"les loisirs\" from the line above the tapestry).

It has been so long since I visited the Cluny that I can\'t recall how the rooms are laid out, but it might be that the idea here is to have a room entitiled \"The Aristocratic Life[style]\", which might be contrasted to other rooms like, \"The Urban Life[style]\" and \"The Peasant Life[style]\".

note : **Perhaps it is called a \"tenture\" rather than a tapestry because it is the product of embroidery rather than weaving. Strictly speaking, a tapestry is woven, on a loom, not embroidered; and I don\'t know what the technique used here was.
The Bayeux \"Tapestry\", being embroidery work, is, thus, not a true tapestry. But, chances are the traditional name will stick nonetheless.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs 22 mins (2004-08-02 14:20:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Or, perhaps, \"Artifacts from Aristocratic Life\", \"Artifacts from Urban Life\", \"Artifacts from Peasant Life\", etc.

Christopher Crockett
Local time: 22:07
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 100

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  1964
59 mins
  -> Thanks, Tayfun.

agree  hodierne: Valuable and knowledgeable input - such an un-medieval word - *input* was meant as being "un-medieval"
3 hrs
  -> "Unmedieval"? Aristocratic? Thanks, Hodierne. Ahh, "input". Yes, not much room for that in a closed system.

agree  Sophieanne
22 hrs
  -> Thanks, Sophieanne.

neutral  Jane Lamb-Ruiz: First she gave NO context..I changed my translation when she added new informaton TO: Manor LIfe OR Castle Life....yes sieng..etc exists in english but it is very narrow..la vie des seigneurs might be aristocrat but not for early history periods; nobles
1 day1 hr
  -> We just have to face up to the fact that Life is, inherently, Unfair, Jane. Neither "manor" nor "castle" life are being depicted on the tap. "Aristocracy" is the creme-de-la-creme of "nobles", many of the latter being impoverished but not the former. Thx.

agree  DGK T-I: Aristocratic life seems very suitable. Perhaps one could also consider something like 'How great nobles lived' to meet your point about nobles. I'm not clear that the asker is referring to a specific tapestry,but the lifestyle seems clearly described
1 day22 hrs
  -> I as i see it, the tapestry provides a series of hypertext links to viewing the objects in the collection which are similar to those found in the tapestry. Quite an ingenious integration of the artifacts available at this amazing museum. Thanks, Giuli.
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53 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): -5
Feudal life


Explanation:
not seignorial
not lordly

it means FEUDAL LIFE

Life in Feudal Times

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 0 min (2004-08-01 16:58:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

MAIS: IF TODAY: Il a une vie seigneurial..for EXAMPLE = PRINCELY LIFE!!

Web Results 1 - 10 of about 223,000 for feudal life. (0.43 seconds)

The Middle Ages: Feudal Life
... for living and working on his land, known as the \"demesne,\" the lord
offered his peasants protection. Read More About Feudal Life. ...
www.learner.org/exhibits/middleages/feudal.html - 9k - Jul 30, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

Exhibits Collection -- The Middle Ages
The exhibit explores various aspects of the Middle Ages life- feudal life,
homes, clothing, health, arts & entertainment, religion and town life. ...
www.learner.org/exhibits/middleages/ - 8k - Jul 30, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from www.learner.org ]

Feudal Life
Feudal Life by Justin. ...
library.thinkquest.org/J002390/feudal.html - 9k - Cached - Similar pages

Middle Ages - Feudal Life
FEUDAL LIFE IN THE Middle Ages. Home Page | Castles | Feudal Life | Cathedrals |
The Plague | Coat of Arms | Knights | Monasteries | Crusades |. DAILY LIFE. ...
www.dist102.k12.il.us/resources/MiddleAges/page2.htm - 8k - Cached - Similar pages

Feudal Life
... But even if a peasant was nominally free, he was still bound to his lord in many
ways; he held a life tenure on this farm, and could owe his lord labor and ...
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Feudalism and medieval life in England
Feudalism and daily life in Medieval Britain. Lords, vassals, peasants, and serfs.
Click to Visit. ... English History. Feudalism and Medieval life. Feudalism. ...
www.britainexpress.com/History/ Feudalism_and_Medieval_life.htm - 39k - Cached - Similar pages

Feudal Life
... until about 1000 AD, populations were tightly bound to the land surrounding the feudal
lord\'s castle. ... Life was hard, and people thought little about clothing. ...
home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~blanch/CharlesDW/Feudal_life.htm - 6k - Cached - Similar pages



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 1 min (2004-08-01 16:59:39 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

POSSIBILITIES;
LIFE IN FEUDAL TIMES
FEUDAL LIFE
A PRINCELY LIFE [in everyday language]

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 7 mins (2004-08-01 17:05:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

FINAL possibility:

MANOR LIFE.....or LIFE ON THE MANOR




--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 8 mins (2004-08-01 17:06:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

la vie seigneurial= also..MANOR LIFE

la vie des seigneurs= the life of lords!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 13 mins (2004-08-01 17:11:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Given your new information;

it\'s
MANOR LIFE

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 22 mins (2004-08-01 17:20:33 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

MANOR LIFE AND FEUDALISM OR FEUDAL LIFE

Introduction Task Resources Process Evaluation Conclusion
... ***in the feudal system since a lord depended on the wealth his manor provided. Sketch the layout of a Medieval Manor***. Also, include a short report on manor life. ...
www.germantown.k12.il.us/knights/html/knights.html - 14k - Cached - Similar pages

Zeal.com - United States - New - Library - Humanities - History ...
... org/exhibits/middleages/feudal.html ****Examines the feudal system and manor life**** of
Medieval Europe which provided safety and defense for peasants from invaders. ...
zeal.com/category/preview.jhtml?cid=529181 - 28k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

LookSmart - Directory - Medieval Period Arts, Culture, and Science
... ****Feudal Life in the Middle Ages Examines the feudal system and manor life**** [vie seigneuriale HERE] of Medieval
Europe which provided safety and defense for peasants from invaders. ...
search.looksmart.com/p/browse/ us1/us317836/us317911/us53828/us79548/us529175/ - 11k - Cached - Similar pages

WannaLearn.com: Academic Subjects : History : Middle Ages
... The Middle Ages - a brief illustrated overview to life in the Middle Ages, with specific reference to the ****feudal system, the Royal Court Manor***, life in the ...
www.wannalearn.com/Academic_ Subjects/History/Middle_Ages/ - 20k - Cached - Similar pages




--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 23 mins (2004-08-01 17:21:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

That\'s it...I am not gonna argue....any more..



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr 34 mins (2004-08-01 17:32:29 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Please note: Dictionaries are a last resort. I can see that many colleagues think dictionaries are a first resort. That is not so. One should try to understand the idea, search one\'s knowledge of the discours and context, to find a meaningful solution in context. Obviously, if the phrase vie seigneuriale is being translated by using a bilingual dictionary rather than context, collocation and discourse, you will get all sorts of aberrations....I have no room to teach my course here but this is borne out if you think about it...
My method:
1) search my existing knowledge in BOTH LANGUAGES of the discourse..in my head
2) look at context and collocation
3) check MONOLINGUAL dictionaries
4) find examples
5) maybe take a look at a bilingual dictionary

Very often the translation of a PHRASE is NOT in any dictionary...
You can\'t translate using bilingual dictionaries..you can translate absorbing discourse in the target and source languages...and it shows when one hasn\'t believe me...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs 3 mins (2004-08-01 18:01:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Note to Allan:

When I AM WRONG, I ALWAYS SAY IT AND THEN TRY TO ANALZE IT. I am one of the few people that does so. The other day you had the same attitude re the words and you were 100% wrong. So i would take care ..also this is about reasoning about discourse not dictionaries.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs 6 mins (2004-08-01 18:04:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Finally, depending on when it was, it could be:

Life [of Lords]in A Medieval Castle...rather than manor...[later]




--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 3 hrs 58 mins (2004-08-02 19:56:33 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

FINAL ANSWER BASED ON POSTER\"S FINAL INFORMATION:

NOBLE LIFE IN THE MIDDLE AGES.....Allan was the only one who even came close with the nobility...

distance/HTML/index.html Audience: Education: Grade(s): 2, 3, 4, 5 Description:
Students will be introduced to ****noble life in the Middle Ages*** through arms and ...
www.voorhees.k12.nj.us/ edtech/collaboration/vc_projects.htm - 19k - Cached - Similar pages

Yahoo! Groups : ed1vidconf Messages : Message 3171 of 3283
... In this program, students will be introduced to ***noble life in the Middle Ages**** through
arms and armor, courtly and religious objects in the collection of The ...
groups.yahoo.com/group/ed1vidconf/message/3171 - 13k - Cached - Similar pages

Electronic Field Trips - Cleveland Museum of Art
... During this program, elementary students will be introduced to noble life in the
Middle Ages through arms and armor, religious and courtly objects in the ...
www.cesa10.k12.wi.us/dl/trips/cma.htm - 55k - Cached - Similar pages


Noble Life in the Middle Ages


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 4 hrs 1 min (2004-08-02 19:59:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Aristocrats are later. More 16th to 19th centuries.

Noble life- vie seigneuriale

AND ,,when i said it was feudal times..I said LIFE in feudal times...
so I was off but not stately or lordely..people don\'t follow the development..Sometimes translation is a development..not enough context...

Jane Lamb-Ruiz
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in PortuguesePortuguese
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  hodierne: Feudal life only refers to feudal times; a commoner living in feudal times would not necessarily live the life of the gentry.
4 mins
  -> somehow, you got hold of this category gentry...seigneurial is not gentry...manor life life on the manor life of lords..landed gentry is a subcategory in UK history!!

disagree  Allan Jeffs: The question is not: "la vie féodale" for Lord's sake! On s'en fiche des fiefs. That's a big IF Jane!!! Hard luck Jane.
7 mins
  -> that's not what feudal times is in French..I knew you would come back with that. If she is referring to a formal, historical fact..it's life in feudal times....it doesn't have to be feodale in French!!

disagree  Richard Benham: If you reall think this, given that it is not supported by any of the dictionaries I have at my disposal, why don't you give some references?//Well show us some credible French discourse where "Seigneurial" is used in this sense!
9 mins
  -> feudal or manor MANOR LIFE whatever not lords..dictionaries don't work...discourse, Richard, that's what the translator has to follow: discourse and context

neutral  Sophieanne: Feudal misses the real meaning of seigneurial, which applies to the privileged side... in other words, "la vie des seigneurs"... not to question your knowledge of French, Jane, but feudal is too general here. Agree with your "technical" remark though
59 mins
  -> they mean life on the manor...life on the manor can be everyone's OK but if you follow it by the life of lords in the description..it works..seigneurial life is just very technical in English..not so in French thanx Sophieanne

disagree  1964: No, I belive as above answers reference point is " privileged side"/Aristocratic life but not general feudal otherwise they would use féodal.
2 hrs

disagree  Conor McAuley: Nope. Lovely set of references though, hope they come in handy for something else.
7 hrs
  -> Nope to WHICH answer? I have a development. When she gave more information, I changed my answer. In any case, at that point, all the answers were completely off...lordly stately?? Please...

disagree  xxxsarahl: you're missing the point here. de seigneur is NOT féodal.
9 hrs
  -> yes if medieval; anyway that was my FIRST idea, now the person has provided information, it's NOBLE LIFE IN THE MIDDLE AGES..

neutral  irat56: Il y a "celle qui sait" et les autres ignorants! Dommage! Manque de simplicité, tout ça!
22 hrs
  -> Je ne dis pas cela. Je dis qu'il y a des niveaux d'erreurs qui démontrent manifestement un manque de training, c'est tout..et des connaissances d'un ou l'autre langue

neutral  DGK T-I: (point of information) in English writing about history, aristocrat/aristocracy is used comfortably for medieval/feudal times eg: http://www.shef.ac.uk/history/staff/medieval/daniel_power.ht... (not just). Agree more context was needed ~
1 day21 hrs

neutral  Christopher Crockett: Mmmm... that umanitoba.ca/~blanch link is just plain historically inaccurate --on all points. "Until 1000"? "people thought little about clothes"?? Gimmea brake.
2 days48 mins
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