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a fortiori

English translation: is not..., still less...

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:n'est..., a fortiori...
English translation:is not..., still less...
Entered by: Tony M
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08:31 Sep 24, 2007
French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law: Contract(s) / film sponsorship agreement
French term or phrase: a fortiori
Yes, I have checked the glossaries and noted what is said there -- but am still slightly confused by my own occurrence of this term. I know we are talking about Latin, but it's not so much the Latin term here, but the French 'et' that is confusing me. This is taken from a contract between a film maker and a company to which it is applying for funding.

As I understand it, the sentence below means:
"The contracting parties expressly agree that their collaboration does not constitute, in any way, a company between them, nor even a temporary association" - have I got this right? Or does it somehow mean 'merely a temporary association' ? I would have thought that one company funding another was simply that - no 'association' per se other than one giving the other money....?

Les contractants conviennent expressément que leur collaboration n'est en aucune façon constitutive d'une société entre eux et a fortiori d'une association momentanée.
French2English
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:30
still less
Explanation:
Remembering that this is following a negative, this is one of those situations where FR expresses it the other way round. It means, if you like 'even more strongly not..', which I think in EN we would more usually express as 'still less..'

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Note added at 21 hrs (2007-09-25 06:21:10 GMT) Post-grading
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I was worried by the same point of logic as Mark, and I think that the translation in fact needs to be something like 'nor even..'

I think this is reconcilable with the underlying meaning of the 'a fortiori', in conjunction with the preceding negative, as I have attempted to explain in my asker note above:

This agreement does not in any way consitute a longer-term partnership between the parties (but that wouldn't have been very likely anyway); still less does it constitute even a temporary association (which it might well have been expected to).

I think that scenario is plausible, and would probably be better rendered in En as 'nor even...'
Selected response from:

Tony M
France
Local time: 02:30
Grading comment
Hi Tony - yes, I finally came to the conclusion that this was indeed the right sense here - after much deliberation - other answers were helpful too in my learning curve. Thanks to all concerned.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
3 +5still less
Tony M
3 +1(and) even less so
veratek
4what is SAYS is..xxxCMJ_Trans
3 +1nothing more than a temporary association
Mark Nathan


Discussion entries: 5





  

Answers


3 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
nothing more than a temporary association


Explanation:
would work here

Mark Nathan
France
Local time: 02:30
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 103

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  xxxCMJ_Trans: maybe that's what they mean but it is NOT what the sentence says as it stands
5 mins
  -> Fair enough, I was taking a "belt and braces" approach

agree  Richard Quinn: logically it has to mean this, but this is not the meaning of the French words - I think it has been worded badly
23 mins
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8 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
what is SAYS is..


Explanation:
they agree that their partnership does not in any way constitute the formation of a company between them nor, and even more so, a temporary "joint venture" (I think it's association in that sense)

Whether it is logical or not isd another issue. You have the rest of the context.

Basically they are saying that while they are happy to work together, they are not forming any sort of official structure, short term or long term

xxxCMJ_Trans
Local time: 02:30
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 203
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
(and) even less so


Explanation:
sugg

veratek
Brazil
Local time: 21:30
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  eliyahug
1 hr
  -> Thank you.
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +5
still less


Explanation:
Remembering that this is following a negative, this is one of those situations where FR expresses it the other way round. It means, if you like 'even more strongly not..', which I think in EN we would more usually express as 'still less..'

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 hrs (2007-09-25 06:21:10 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

I was worried by the same point of logic as Mark, and I think that the translation in fact needs to be something like 'nor even..'

I think this is reconcilable with the underlying meaning of the 'a fortiori', in conjunction with the preceding negative, as I have attempted to explain in my asker note above:

This agreement does not in any way consitute a longer-term partnership between the parties (but that wouldn't have been very likely anyway); still less does it constitute even a temporary association (which it might well have been expected to).

I think that scenario is plausible, and would probably be better rendered in En as 'nor even...'

Tony M
France
Local time: 02:30
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 317
Grading comment
Hi Tony - yes, I finally came to the conclusion that this was indeed the right sense here - after much deliberation - other answers were helpful too in my learning curve. Thanks to all concerned.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  AllegroTrans: this was my understanding
6 mins
  -> Thanks, A/T!

agree  Melissa McMahon: yes... that's a good way of saying what the sentence says, leaving aside the question of whether they mean it!
6 mins
  -> Thanks, Melissa! I can see how it MIGHT make sense, but that's up to them...!

agree  Nina Iordache: Of course!
1 hr
  -> Thanks, Nina!

agree  Mohamed Mehenoun
6 hrs
  -> Merci, Moh !

agree  rkillings: But only if you think your audience is too unlettered to understand "a fortiori", which is used plenty in English as well.
17 hrs
  -> Thanks, RK! Yes, indeed, though I think the usage in EN is a lot less common in EN than in FR, so comprehensions cannot be guaranteed.
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Changes made by editors
Sep 24, 2007 - Changes made by Tony M:
Edited KOG entry<a href="/profile/21113">French2English's</a> old entry - "a fortiori " » "still less"


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