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excédât-elle un/vingtième

English translation: even if by more than 5%

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13:26 Jan 12, 2008
French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law: Contract(s) / conveyancing
French term or phrase: excédât-elle un/vingtième
Does this term have a recognised translation? Or could someone at least explain what it means. Here in context "toute erreur dans la désignation et toute différence de superficie, excédât-elle un/vingtième, devant faire le profit ou la perte de l'ACQUEREUR."
Britaly
Local time: 03:29
English translation:even if by more than 5%
Explanation:
This has been discussed before at great length, so I suggest it would be worth your looking back into the archive.

Historically, under French conveyancing law, a tolerance of ±5% was disregarded (but more than that was taken into account). So what this is saying is that in the present contract / Deed, even errors of over 5% will not be adjusted for (i.e. will have to be accepted by either the seller or buyer, as appropriate)

It's a standard inclusion in such contracts, though I've never personally come across a 'standard' translation — not least, because I don't think the equivalent concept exists under English law (AFAIK!)

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Note added at 27 mins (2008-01-12 13:53:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Of course, since we are talking about 'erreur', it will be 'of' rather than 'by' — or of course you can re-instate "...it exceeds..."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 54 mins (2008-01-12 14:20:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In case you have any doubts, as I am speaking from personal knowledge rather than merely citing Web refs., this was explained to me in great detail by a practising notaire, who added that it was pretty much useless padding anyway, referring as it does to obsolete FR practices!
Selected response from:

Tony M
France
Local time: 03:29
Grading comment
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
4 +3even if by more than 5%
Tony M
3 +2even if it exceedsBusterK
4 +1should it exceed one twentieth...Ghyslaine LE NAGARD


Discussion entries: 10





  

Answers


4 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
should it exceed one twentieth...


Explanation:
should it exceed 1/20th

Ghyslaine LE NAGARD
New Caledonia
Local time: 12:29
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench, Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 31
Notes to answerer
Asker: Does this mean that if the errors or differences are less than 1/20th then the buyer has no recourse?

Asker: L'ACQUEREUR prend les biens immobiliers vendus dans l'état où ils se trouvent actuellement sans pouvoir exercer aucun recours ni répétition contre le VENDEUR à raison de fouilles ou excavations qui ont pu être pratiquées sous l'immeuble et de tous éboulements qui pourraient en résulter par la suite, la nature du sol et du sous sol n'étant pas garantie, comme aussi sans aucune garantie de la part du VENDEUR, en ce qui concerne soit l'état de l'immeuble et les vices de toutes natures apparents ou cachés dont il peut être affecté, soit les mitoyennetés, soit la désignation des biens vendus soit les indications de superficie , toute erreur dans la désignation et toute différence de superficie, excédât-elle un/vingtième, devant faire le profit ou la perte de l'ACQUEREUR.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Karen Stokes
17 mins

disagree  Tony M: Although the idea is of course right, the EN expression is incomplete — even allowing for the stiltedness of legal-ese! But Alex, the key point that this misses out is the 'EVEN IF...it should exceed' idea encapsulated in the FR subjunctive.
24 mins

agree  xxxBourth: Contrary to Tony, this sounds like legalese to me. Depends how far down the "plain English" road you want to go. It could be perplexing for some English speakers, however, including native speakers!
32 mins

neutral  B D Finch: I find the English perfectly "plain" enough! However, I am now convinced by Tony's arguments that "even" or "even if" is required. "5%" still preferred to a "twentieth".
48 mins

agree  Victoria Burns: I agree - 5% sounds more natural to me
2 hrs

disagree  Attorney DC Bar: No, it's 'even if', not 'should it'. And how are you translating 'repetition', Asker, just out of curiosity?
3 hrs
  -> repetition ?
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20 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
even if it exceeds


Explanation:
I do agree with the proposal of NewCal in a general context but this one looks different.
I understand that the difference, even if in excess of one twentieth, will be borne by the buyer. As a consequence, the buyer has NO recourse at all.

BusterK
Local time: 03:29
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 62

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  xxxBourth: That too
25 mins

agree  Laura Tridico: I prefer "even if it exceeds..."
11 hrs
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24 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +3
even if by more than 5%


Explanation:
This has been discussed before at great length, so I suggest it would be worth your looking back into the archive.

Historically, under French conveyancing law, a tolerance of ±5% was disregarded (but more than that was taken into account). So what this is saying is that in the present contract / Deed, even errors of over 5% will not be adjusted for (i.e. will have to be accepted by either the seller or buyer, as appropriate)

It's a standard inclusion in such contracts, though I've never personally come across a 'standard' translation — not least, because I don't think the equivalent concept exists under English law (AFAIK!)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 27 mins (2008-01-12 13:53:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Of course, since we are talking about 'erreur', it will be 'of' rather than 'by' — or of course you can re-instate "...it exceeds..."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 54 mins (2008-01-12 14:20:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In case you have any doubts, as I am speaking from personal knowledge rather than merely citing Web refs., this was explained to me in great detail by a practising notaire, who added that it was pretty much useless padding anyway, referring as it does to obsolete FR practices!

Tony M
France
Local time: 03:29
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 317
Grading comment
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.
Notes to answerer
Asker: Hi Tony - I would love to repost the full sentence at the top but have no idea how! sorry - also, am mystified as the first thing I did was run a proz term search on this phrase and turned up a zero response - where can I find the other disscussions?


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  xxxBourth: Certainly clearer to all.
20 mins
  -> Thanks, Alex!

agree  Attorney DC Bar: Correct, but what's wrong with 'one-twentieth'? Why restate as '5%'? Not incorrect, but why do it?
3 hrs
  -> Thanks, Rufinus! You're quite right, I did it more than anything else for Asker's benefit, to make it feel more familiar, and to (I hoped!) help explain the concept...

neutral  B D Finch: Even should it exceed by more than 5% ...?
11 hrs
  -> Well exactly! If you add in the 'even if...' idea, then the EN subjunctive 'should' sits really awkwardly, legal-ese or not

agree  Patrice
15 hrs
  -> Merci, Patrice !
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