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18:33 Nov 11, 2011
French to English translations [PRO] Law/Patents - Law: Contract(s) / Swiss real estate purchase contract
French term or phrase:prise de possession
How can I differentiate between "prise de possession" and "entrée en jouissance" in the following sentence? Don't they mean the same thing? Thanks in advance...
"La prise de possession, l’entrée en jouissance, le transfert des droits, des charges, des profits et des risques auront lieu le jour de la signature de la réquisition de transfert"
Explanation: To have possession of something, a property in this case, means that you have the keys and you're able to use it. It doesn't matter who owns it - I think David is confusing possession with ownership.
I think there are two ways of translating this. You could say "the transfer of possession and use", which is a tautology but is closer to the French, or just combine the two phrases and say "transfer of possession".
I thought that the general concensus was that although close in meaning, they do NOT mean the same thing.
The discussion clearing up what was meant by 'possession' may have sidetracked the main issue. My waffly posting didn't help much either, although I think I did finally satisfy myself that the two terms were different and that I was able to illustrate why.
I hope that "they do mean the same thing" doesn't end up in the KudoZ glossary as a translation for "prise de possession," since that's the official answer selected.
Thanks everyone for your contributions on this. I have chosen Phil's answer because it was the most succinct, but the other answers helped clarify the meaning. Wish I could award points to all... :)
'entrée en jouissance' refers to the (actual) occupation and use of the property, whereas 'prise de possession' means 'taking possession' ? Here's what Google comes up with for "possession, occupation and use": http://goo.gl/RMPFG
You have put your finger on an important distinction. We had to get rid of the idea that possession was applicable to rented property and then this element can become clear. Each term listed can mean pretty much the same thing but as you indicate, where each is used in the same document this is to mark a distinction. Your example I a good one although I would make the follows comments : The buyer ‘takes possession’ (under the terms of the contract of sale) the day he receives the keys. On that day, he does not ‘enter into enjoyment’ of the property as it is rented out. The lessee ‘takes possession’ (under the terms of the lease) the day he receives the keys. He also ‘enters into enjoyment’ under the terms of that same lease on that day. It is only at the end of the lease that the buyer may subsequently be able to enter into enjoyment of the property. As I suggested in my somewhat rambling answer below, terminology in law depends on the point of view and the moment in time when a particular event occurs. In effect, two individuals are ‘in possession’ but under different contracts, at different moments in time and with a different status as it were.
“Entrée en possession” (synonymous with “prise de possession”) and “entrée en jouissance” are often used interchangeably in everday usage but there can be a difference - particularly when the two terms are used in the same document. For example, there can be “entrée en jouissance” without “prise de possession” when the buyer of a property that is rented out buys on the basis that the tenant will continue in possession. The buyer does not actually enter into possession until the tenant leaves.
Whilst in French property contexts, 'possession' is used for the moment when you get the keys whether your are acquiring or renting, of that I have no doubt, (see below), I am not sure if this same reading applies to Switzerland.
Where in Switzerland is this taking place?
Otherwise, for France, the list of terms are diferent ways of referring to the same moment, in other words when you get your sticky mitts on the keys and it's yours, yours, yours (acquired or rented!) and so are the rights and obligations which go hand in hand with such joys!
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Answers
2 mins confidence: peer agreement (net): +2
taking possession
Explanation: No, they don't mean the same thing. To have the enjoyment (or perhaps better, benefit) of something doesn't necessarily mean you possess it, and indeed in a trust set-up you certainly wouldn't.
David Wright Austria Local time: 20:34 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 52
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peer agreement (net): +2
