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dans l'ignorance ou le déni

English translation: in ignorance or denial of

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11:16 Feb 10, 2009
French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law (general)
French term or phrase: dans l'ignorance ou le déni
"opérations s’effectuant dans l’ignorance ou le déni du droit des artistes-interprètes." This relates to a commission that brings legal proceedings for transactions (ie unlawful use of recorded music) infringing performers' rights - I can't think of a good way to express "ignorance ou déni"

thanks
Jane RM
France
Local time: 11:09
English translation:in ignorance or denial of
Explanation:
don't see why a literal translation won't work.
ignorance of the law and denial of rights are legal concepts.

www.RaceChat.co.nz • View topic - Oh so easy ..............
... plain ignorant like you he will have sought and obtained legal opinion. ... living in the dark ages swimming in ignorance and denial of NZ law while ...
www.racechat.co.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8068&st=0&sk=t...

Ignorantia juris non excusat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
... or Ignorantia legis neminem excusat (Latin for "ignorance of the law does not excuse" or "ignorance of the law excuses no one") is a legal principle ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorantia_juris_non_excusat
Selected response from:

writeaway
Local time: 11:09
Grading comment
Thanks for your confirmation and Graham's comments - it is always a fine line between making something sound good in English and not changing the meaning of the source text - especially in legal work.
3 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
3 +5in ignorance or denial of
writeaway
3 +1through ignorance or denial
Graham macLachlan
2through ignorance or repudiation
Yasutomo Kanazawa
Summary of reference entries provided
writeaway

  

Answers


19 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
through ignorance or repudiation


Explanation:
I think repudiation would sound more like law term :)

Yasutomo Kanazawa
Local time: 18:09
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in JapaneseJapanese

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  writeaway: refs?
15 mins
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52 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +5
in ignorance or denial of


Explanation:
don't see why a literal translation won't work.
ignorance of the law and denial of rights are legal concepts.

www.RaceChat.co.nz • View topic - Oh so easy ..............
... plain ignorant like you he will have sought and obtained legal opinion. ... living in the dark ages swimming in ignorance and denial of NZ law while ...
www.racechat.co.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8068&st=0&sk=t...

Ignorantia juris non excusat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
... or Ignorantia legis neminem excusat (Latin for "ignorance of the law does not excuse" or "ignorance of the law excuses no one") is a legal principle ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorantia_juris_non_excusat

writeaway
Local time: 11:09
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 613
Grading comment
Thanks for your confirmation and Graham's comments - it is always a fine line between making something sound good in English and not changing the meaning of the source text - especially in legal work.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  B D Finch
50 mins

agree  xxxArabellaCE
2 hrs

agree  Yolanda Broad
1 day3 hrs

agree  Tony M
1 day5 hrs

agree  Francis Marche
4 days
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16 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
through ignorance or denial


Explanation:
Whether through ignorance or denial, some do not consider this to be an ...
www.free-education.org.uk/?p=361

This may be through ignorance or denial of the sustainability issue. ...
www.bath.ac.uk/cree/sterling/sterlingthesis.pdf

In fact, the ignorance or denial of these principles is all the more ...
www.routledge.com/textbooks/9780415396882/resources/3.1.asp

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Note added at 2 days2 hrs (2009-02-12 13:41:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Interesting debate about 'in' and 'through', however my only answer is to propose several basic but important points that should be taken into account:

– in legal translation the source document is binding, the translation being for guidance only (let's face it, translators are not lawyers: it will always be as such so long as legal work is more lucrative than translation)
– therefore if the document is to be legally binding it has to be revised by a legal professional (make this clear in your estimate and upon delivery)
– the job of the translator is to convey the message and not replace the word's of one language with the 'equivalent' words of another

In your case the point is that some person may have infringed another's right because they didn't understand the implications of their act (ignorance) or they did it deliberately, refusing to acknowledge those rights (denial). There are a variety of ways of expressing this in English.

If you are worried about making a mistake you should take out insurance; however the best insurance is to make your level of competence clear to your client and get him or her to acknowledge this.

I recently did a translation for a huge international electronics company and their source document finished thus:

Une traduction en anglais de ce document vous sera envoyée ultérieurement pour information, étant précisé que seul le document en français fait foi.

I hope this puts 'in' and 'through' into perspective.

Graham macLachlan
Local time: 11:09
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 298

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  writeaway: how do you get through from 'dans'./perhaps I should explain. wording is very important in legal texts and acting 'in ignorance' is not the same as acting 'due to' ignorance. whence my neutral
20 mins

agree  Karen Vincent-Jones: I prefer 'through'. Writeaway must realise that not every word in a French text should be translated literally.
1 day58 mins
  -> thanks Karen

neutral  Tony M: I can't help but agree with W/A here: in the particular context as given, the difference in meaning between 'through' and 'in' could be crucial. I've been on the receiving end of some copyright issues, and total precision is vital to avoid costly errors.
1 day6 hrs

neutral  Francis Marche: I joint W/A and Tony here: acting in denial and "through" denial are two different actions, in Eng as much as in Fr.
4 days
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Reference comments


38 mins
Reference

Reference information:
La SPEDIDAM n'hésite pas à agir en justice dans le cas où des opérations (telles celles caractérisées
de piraterie) s'effectuent dans l'ignorance ou le déni du droit des artistes-interprètes.
http://www.spedidam.fr/1_artistes/14_fairevaloir.htm#

writeaway
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 613
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