dans l'ignorance ou le déni

English translation: in ignorance or denial of

11:16 Feb 10, 2009

French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law (general)

French term or phrase: dans l'ignorance ou le déni

"opérations s’effectuant dans l’ignorance ou le déni du droit des artistes-interprètes." This relates to a commission that brings legal proceedings for transactions (ie unlawful use of recorded music) infringing performers' rights - I can't think of a good way to express "ignorance ou déni"

thanks

Jane RM KudoZ activity Questions: 508 (9 open) (13 without valid answers) (35 closed without grading) Answers: 256 France
Local time: 20:58

English translation:in ignorance or denial of

Explanation:
don't see why a literal translation won't work.
ignorance of the law and denial of rights are legal concepts.

www.RaceChat.co.nz • View topic - Oh so easy ..............
... plain ignorant like you he will have sought and obtained legal opinion. ... living in the dark ages swimming in ignorance and denial of NZ law while ...
www.racechat.co.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8068&st=0&sk=t...

Ignorantia juris non excusat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
... or Ignorantia legis neminem excusat (Latin for "ignorance of the law does not excuse" or "ignorance of the law excuses no one") is a legal principle ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorantia_juris_non_excusat

Selected response from:

writeaway

Grading comment

Thanks for your confirmation and Graham's comments - it is always a fine line between making something sound good in English and not changing the meaning of the source text - especially in legal work.
3 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Summary of answers provided

3 +5

in ignorance or denial of

writeaway

3 +1

through ignorance or denial

Graham macLachlan

through ignorance or repudiation

Yasutomo Kanazawa

Summary of reference entries provided

writeaway

Answers

19 mins confidence:

through ignorance or repudiation

Explanation:
I think repudiation would sound more like law term :)

Yasutomo Kanazawa
Japan
Local time: 03:58
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

Japanese

52 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +5

in ignorance or denial of

writeaway
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 617

Grading comment

16 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +1

through ignorance or denial

Explanation:
Whether through ignorance or denial, some do not consider this to be an ...
www.free-education.org.uk/?p=361

This may be through ignorance or denial of the sustainability issue. ...
www.bath.ac.uk/cree/sterling/sterlingthesis.pdf

In fact, the ignorance or denial of these principles is all the more ...
www.routledge.com/textbooks/9780415396882/resources/3.1.asp

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days2 hrs (2009-02-12 13:41:22 GMT)
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Interesting debate about 'in' and 'through', however my only answer is to propose several basic but important points that should be taken into account:

– in legal translation the source document is binding, the translation being for guidance only (let's face it, translators are not lawyers: it will always be as such so long as legal work is more lucrative than translation)
– therefore if the document is to be legally binding it has to be revised by a legal professional (make this clear in your estimate and upon delivery)
– the job of the translator is to convey the message and not replace the word's of one language with the 'equivalent' words of another

In your case the point is that some person may have infringed another's right because they didn't understand the implications of their act (ignorance) or they did it deliberately, refusing to acknowledge those rights (denial). There are a variety of ways of expressing this in English.

If you are worried about making a mistake you should take out insurance; however the best insurance is to make your level of competence clear to your client and get him or her to acknowledge this.

I recently did a translation for a huge international electronics company and their source document finished thus:

Une traduction en anglais de ce document vous sera envoyée ultérieurement pour information, étant précisé que seul le document en français fait foi.

I hope this puts 'in' and 'through' into perspective.

Graham macLachlan
Local time: 20:58
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 298

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)

neutral

writeaway: how do you get through from 'dans'./perhaps I should explain. wording is very important in legal texts and acting 'in ignorance' is not the same as acting 'due to' ignorance. whence my neutral

20 mins

agree

Karen Vincent-Jones (X): I prefer 'through'. Writeaway must realise that not every word in a French text should be translated literally.

1 day 58 mins

-> thanks Karen

neutral

Tony M: I can't help but agree with W/A here: in the particular context as given, the difference in meaning between 'through' and 'in' could be crucial. I've been on the receiving end of some copyright issues, and total precision is vital to avoid costly errors.

1 day 6 hrs

neutral

Francis Marche: I joint W/A and Tony here: acting in denial and "through" denial are two different actions, in Eng as much as in Fr.

4 days

Reference comments

38 mins

Reference

Reference information:
La SPEDIDAM n'hésite pas à agir en justice dans le cas où des opérations (telles celles caractérisées
de piraterie) s'effectuent dans l'ignorance ou le déni du droit des artistes-interprètes.
http://www.spedidam.fr/1_artistes/14_fairevaloir.htm#

writeaway
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 617

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dans l'ignorance ou le déni

English translation: in ignorance or denial of

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English translation: in ignorance or denial of

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