20:05 Jan 11 

Yes, we all have our own. No problem with that. I went on to use "I" which "n'engage que ma pomme"! ;-)

20:02 Jan 11 

Liz makes a good point - we don't know the target country. But we know that English is required, and the term I have suggested would be comprehensible, I suggest, in all English-speaking jurisdictions. Nuff said.

19:22 Jan 11 

@Nikki...er, we haven't had a reply about the target country, so ethics is irrelevant for the moment. Translators are always told about "source/target", as for ethics, we all have our principles.

18:52 Jan 11 

Er, trying to get back on track here...?

I understand the intention to make things as clearly understandable as possible for the final reader. I would say that there is probably even some argument for retaining the French in italics in the original and adding adreaded footnote with the squiggly ≈ sign suggesting a close similarity to whatever is the current name for a clsoely similar benefit in the relevant country.

From an ethical point of view, doing a term for term thing, which amounts to affirming the two are the same is well, er, not cricket. The end reader might want an "absolute" equivalent. Have you thought about telling him there is not an "absolute" equivalent? Perhaps not relevant in here, but as a matter of principle, I reckon that language is not about fitting play-do into foreign moulds. If the moulds are different shapes, I'd be all the less likely to do so.

However, we are all having this moral exchange and there is more than enough info for the Asker to make a choice. I'm outa here!

18:49 Jan 11 

Indeed. Bureaucrats are not that popular.

18:26 Jan 11 

the people who work there are completely fine - I myself have been a Civil Servant. But instititutionally, they come in for alot of totally justified criticism. They lose files (even laptops containing claimants' confidential data). They send out tax demands to people who owe nothing. Thretaen to sue claimants who they have overpaid in tax credits due to their own accounting errors. They are under-resourced and inefficient in countless ways. Just read the press.

18:19 Jan 11 

So you are now saying that everybody in these organisations is rude? Gosh. I deal with them most days of the week, and apart from some who work in call centres, people are generally pretty polite as I deal with most of them face-to-face. Do you Allegro?

18:05 Jan 11 

are not very adept at understanding even plain English. They haven't the courtesy to answer letters and they can't even sign their own letters. Plain rude they are. But that is another story.

18:03 Jan 11 

@Allegro..localising the term for purposes of understanding.

18:02 Jan 11 

immigrant benefit seekers are often better than natives at sussing out benefits and there are all sorts of advice centres (often with free interpreters) to help anyway. Personally, I think "One" is simpler to understand than "single" which is simpler than"lone" :-))

18:02 Jan 11 

@Liz, did anybody say anything about the two social systems being the same? Never even hinted at. I am talking about equivalency and understanding. I work for the DHSS, DWP, NHS, you name it, so I am not talking out of my.....

18:01 Jan 11 

is not a translator's job, and in my view would be quite unprofessional - let the user of the document do that if he or she considers it right, but not the translator

17:59 Jan 11 

They might be told there is no such thing, but does anyone expect the two social systelms to be exactly the same? They are not. I cannot see what all the fuss is about. There is no automatic sticker-type eqiuvalent. There are similar benefits. That's the long and the short of it. Either term would probably do, but I cannot recommend strongly enough avoiding a calque.

We're running into much ado about nothing on this one as there are so many posisble solutions.

17:58 Jan 11 

One reason: because 'allowance' has a dual meaning. It can also refer to a tax allowance and believe me, benefits offices in the UK and the CAF are STICKLERS for detail. I deal with them on a very regular basis in my advocacy work, anything but ABSOLUTE equivalence is completely disregarded.

17:50 Jan 11 

is that it is (usually, but not always) possible to translate these kind of terms into internationally comprehensible English. I cannot for the life of me see any intelligent English-speaker, in any country, failing to understand what a "single parent allowance" is - the words are explanation enough. Using the "exact" equivalent (and there is no such thing) in the UK simply doesn't work, the French and the UK benefits systems being quite different

17:50 Jan 11 

BTW Nikki, I was joking. Once again I agree absolutely with Liz on this and I have had exactly the reverse when helping an English lone parent in France who tried to obtain the equivalent benefits from CAF. It pays to localise the translation to your target country, if the purpose is to obtain the equivalent benefit. Furthermore, even the OECD stopped using the term 'single parent' - a 'parent isolé' these days (even if some of us don't like the term) is called a 'lone parent'.

17:43 Jan 11 

However, if anybody comes to the UK they will be told "there is no such thing...." :) and this is exactly what happens.

17:42 Jan 11 

Obviously some fundamental differences of opinion.

17:40 Jan 11 

Ben non! MDR. If you take the view that anything sufficiently descriptive would fit the bill, the view I take, then there's no problem. Indeed, trying to use a UK equivalent is not necessary as that would only make sense if the conditions needing to be satisfied are the same, if the payments are the same etc.

What is relevant here, is rendering the French understandable.

16:34 Jan 11 

Oh no Nikki! You've really thrown the cat amongst the pigeons, we'll now have to rush off and find out what the 2009 term was in all our respective countries ;-)

16:29 Jan 11 

It's called One Parent Family Payment here now but used to be known as Lone Parent Allowance. I think it is being made more explicit (Plain English) because we got such an influx of immigrants in recent years who don't speak English (?). The point AT is making (I think) is that the equivalent needs to be clear internationally unless there has been a specific request for UK equivalence which would mean Lisa's answer is required. However, AT's is clear and he was first so that's why I agreed with him.

16:28 Jan 11 

Yur document must not be extremely recent. Here is an extract from the CAF website :


"ALLOCATION DE PARENT ISOLÉ
A compter du 1er juin 2009, l'Allocation de parent isolé (Api) est remplacée par le Revenu de solidarité active (Rsa)."


And the Service Public site :
http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F19778.xhtml
Définition
Le revenu de solidarité active (RSA) :
• remplace le revenu minimum d'insertion (RMI) et l'allocation de parent isolé (API) pour les personnes privées d'emploi,
• apporte une incitation financière aux personnes sans ressource qui reprennent un emploi (le RSA garantit à quelqu'un qui reprend un travail que ses revenus augmentent),
• complète les ressources des personnes dont l'activité professionnelle ne leur apporte que des revenus limités.
Le RSA est versé sans limitation de durée, tant que le bénéficiaire continue à remplir les conditions.
Le montant versé peut varier si la situation familiale ou les ressources du foyer évoluent.

15:48 Jan 11 

I agree with Liz here, the target country and purpose of the translation are totally relevant. I am not claiming a UK bias but that is all I can speak about authoritatively, and I did qualify my answer by saying that is what it's called in the UK. Perhaps somewhere else it is a 'single parent allowance', I was only trying to suggest an alternative.

15:39 Jan 11 

Also, while I am banging on, as I live and work in the UK, all my experience is based on this country when it comes to English, so all my contributions are based on this, like it or not:) That does not mean I don't respect my target language countries. Just to be clear. It also works the other way round.

15:35 Jan 11 

Also, I don't know whether you have noticed but 99% of the time translators ask for US or British English...I fail to understand your comment.

15:34 Jan 11 

Of course the target country should influence a translation! Otherwise you are completely ignoring cultural differences. This is why often translators leave certain expressions in French or whatever language, and translate the meaning into English in brackets, because there is no direct equivalent. But we all have to understand each other at the end of the day.

15:31 Jan 11 

should not influence a translation - which should be a syntactical comprehensible expression conveying the "reality" of the term. Why are EN-speakers so UK (or US)-centric? English is spoken in Ireland, New Zealand, South Afirica, Guyana, Jamaica and countless other countries

15:25 Jan 11 

Can you tell us the target country? As for AllegroTrans comment, if no such thing exists outside France/a French speaking country, then this has to be catered for! Otherwise benefit seekers will not understand when they go to a non-French speaking country! This is what happens here in the UK.