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pourtant valide

English translation: although competent/eligible


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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:pourtant valide
English translation:although competent/eligible
Entered by: Elizabeth Niklewska
Options:
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- Include in personal glossary

13:10 Jan 26, 2012
French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law (general)
French term or phrase: pourtant valide
In this text various conflicting heirs are claiming that documents signed by the testator have been forged.

"L'acte notarié constatant le depot de l'acte argué de faux, a été passé en présence non de YY, "pourtant valide", mais en celle de Maitre XXX qui le représentait."

I think I understand what it is getting at - YY's presence was still valid (he had not gone mad, etc.) so there was no reason for this lawyer to deposit the document for him.

However, I can't find a good way of putting it.
Elizabeth Niklewska
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:39
although competent
Explanation:
Perhaps the use of the word "competent" avoids any potential misunderstandings with the word "fit", fit and able coming to mind, which often relates to physical states rather than mental. Indeed, even the prhase "sound of mind" might not be right here either as the term "valide" is not physical/mental specific. THat's why 'competent' might be a suitable option.
Selected response from:

Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Local time: 20:39
Grading comment
Thanks for that this clever solution
I did not expect my question to provoke such a torrent of interesting debate. Thanks for everyone's contributions - they were all helpful
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +2although competent
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
4 +1though fit at that timemimi 254
4nonetheless of sound mind/still of sound mind
gail desautels
3however valid
Lauren Ransford
3(apparently) valid at that time
AllegroTrans


Discussion entries: 8





  

Answers


7 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
(apparently) valid at that time


Explanation:
referring to the document not the person, i.e. valid at that time, but alleged later to be a forgerry

AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:39
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 567
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26 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
though fit at that time


Explanation:
though in good form/health

agree with your suggestion - valide here refers to the pers and not the doc

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Note added at 30 mins (2012-01-26 13:40:53 GMT)
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the alleged forged doc was not submitted in the presence of yyy though fit/in good health at that time, but in the presence of his lawyer

mimi 254
Local time: 19:39
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 192

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Yolanda Broad: Syntactically, "valide" has to refer to yyy, not to the document.
1 hr
  -> Thanks!

neutral  ormiston: if followed by 'fit to sign' perhaps (i.e. eligible) but otherwise it sounds like whe was able to run marathons etc.!
1 hr
  -> fit = well = sound (mind), not fit to run a marathon in this context!
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
nonetheless of sound mind/still of sound mind


Explanation:
personne pourtant valide (of sound mind/mentally competent)

I think it is not the notion of "fitness" here (which also refers to a physical state), but the notion of "sound mind" that is at play


Les droits des patients atteints de la maladie d'Alzheimer ou de ...www.kbs-frb.be/.../PUB_1849_ DroitsDesPatie...Similar - Translate this page

File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
sonne et/ou pour anticiper le moment où la personne n'aura plus la capacité de prendre des .... ne sera plus titulaire d'un permis de conduire valable. .... a will, one condition is that the person in question is of 'sound mind'. The ... possible. Les déclarations anticipées peuvent pourtant constituer, dans le cadre d'une ...

A practical guide to estate planning and administration - Google Books Resultbooks.google.ca/books?isbn=140181798X...
Michael Gau - 2004 - Business & Economics - 317 pages
Holographic wills are recognized by the UPC and mam- states as being valid, ... Should personnel not directly involved in their drafting witness wills, or does that ... Competence has two elements — age or emancipation AND sound mind. ...

http://books.google.ca/books?id=7iYxF6iqFOkC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA2...

Wills, Trusts and Estates - Professor Frances Rudkowww.rongolini.com/trustsandestates.htmCached - Similar
You +1'd this publicly. Undo
To make a valid will one must be of sound mind though s/he need not possess ..... Medical personnel and institutions are protected from civil and criminal liability ...

lots more reference for this concept - to make a valid willl, there are 2 requirement (basically) - being an adult, and being of sound mind/mentally competent

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Note added at 2 hrs (2012-01-26 15:14:48 GMT)
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goodness - please excuse my typos etc. (ie 2 requirement) ... I was a little pressed for time :)

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Note added at 5 hrs (2012-01-26 18:39:42 GMT)
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valide - here does not (cannot) refer to physical fitness - it refers to legal fitness/capacity (sound mind)

"Le fait qu’une personne doive se faire aider par un conseiller ou un tuteur ne constitue pas un empêchement à sa capacité juridique de faire un testament."

http://www.justice.gouv.qc.ca/francais/publications/generale...

it is no different in France (otherwise you would have the Human Rights Commission after you)



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Note added at 6 hrs (2012-01-26 19:16:40 GMT)
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other translation options for "valide" - http://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/search?source=auto&qu...

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Note added at 6 hrs (2012-01-26 19:17:16 GMT)
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other translation options for "personne valide" - http://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/search?source=auto&qu...


    Reference: http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=personne+pourtant+vali...
gail desautels
Canada
Local time: 14:39
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  ormiston: agree ! he was eligible to sign because of sound mind
10 mins

disagree  Pascale van Kempen-Herlant: Gail, I just mean that I would translate "personne valide" as "fit (and well)" but not as "of sound mind" like you suggest here. That's all. Nothing personal, let's see what the other comments are. I may be wrong.
3 hrs
  -> disagee - in legal terms - "fit and well" means "of sound mind"
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6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
although competent


Explanation:
Perhaps the use of the word "competent" avoids any potential misunderstandings with the word "fit", fit and able coming to mind, which often relates to physical states rather than mental. Indeed, even the prhase "sound of mind" might not be right here either as the term "valide" is not physical/mental specific. THat's why 'competent' might be a suitable option.

Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Local time: 20:39
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 174
Grading comment
Thanks for that this clever solution
I did not expect my question to provoke such a torrent of interesting debate. Thanks for everyone's contributions - they were all helpful

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  ormiston: this could be a neat way round it - being unfit does not disqualify signatories only mental state see discussion note
40 mins

agree  Yolanda Broad
1 day21 mins
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
however valid


Explanation:
I think "pourtant valide" refers to the "acte notarié", not the person. Isn't it saying that the "acte notarié", however valid, occurred outside of the presence of YY, but in the presence of XXX, who was representing YY?

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Note added at 3 hrs (2012-01-26 16:28:59 GMT)
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No, I agree with the other posters regarding "fit" or "able-bodied." Please disregard!

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Note added at 8 hrs (2012-01-26 21:30:00 GMT)
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Adding this on to what AllegroTrans just said. I waffled a bit earlier, but do think there is merit to it referring to the deed, not the person.

Lauren Ransford
Local time: 11:39
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8
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