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French to English translations [PRO] Law/Patents - Law (general)
French term or phrase:pourtant valide
In this text various conflicting heirs are claiming that documents signed by the testator have been forged.
"L'acte notarié constatant le depot de l'acte argué de faux, a été passé en présence non de YY, "pourtant valide", mais en celle de Maitre XXX qui le représentait."
I think I understand what it is getting at - YY's presence was still valid (he had not gone mad, etc.) so there was no reason for this lawyer to deposit the document for him.
Explanation: Perhaps the use of the word "competent" avoids any potential misunderstandings with the word "fit", fit and able coming to mind, which often relates to physical states rather than mental. Indeed, even the prhase "sound of mind" might not be right here either as the term "valide" is not physical/mental specific. THat's why 'competent' might be a suitable option.
Thanks for that this clever solution
I did not expect my question to provoke such a torrent of interesting debate. Thanks for everyone's contributions - they were all helpful 4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer
- L’acte notarié constatant le dépôt… = document A
- Le dépôt de l’acte argué faux… = document B
- A été passé…= in reference to document A (as it is the subject of the sentence)
- En presence non de YYY (my Mr Bloggs) = not in the presence of Mr Bloggs
- Pourtant valide… = Mr Bloggs was apt/capable/competente/of sousnd mind, whatever
- Mais en celle de Me XXX qui le représentait… = but in the presence of Me XXX who was representing him
Document A certifies that document B has been lodged somewhere and it is document A which was signed in the presence of Me XXX rather than that of Mr Bloggs whom he was representing. (I would not stand up in court and swear that Mr Bloggs is the testator. Nothing in the French original posted here enables me to affirm that, although it may be the case. The asker probably knows).
..."L'acte notarié constatant le depot de l'acte..."
Doesn't this suggest that the "acte notarié" and the "acte" are separate docs?
So Bloggs makes a will, then a notary draws up a deed of deposition of the will whilst Bloggs is still alive, but instead of doing so in the presence of Bloggs, does so in the presence of Bloggs's lawyer and therefore commits a forgery (presumably by attesting that either Bloggs id dead or incapable). Is that your interpretation, m' learned friend?
Don't agree Allegro as the question here is about an allegedly dodgy deed, allegedly having been signed by the lawyer representing Mr Bloggs rather than by Mr Bloggs himself, the latter apparently being perfectly competent/able/apt/fit... to do so at the time. Well dodgy goings-on!
The validity of the document is allegedly dodgy but the qustion being asked here relates very clearly to part of the sentence referring to Mr Bloggs' capacity/fitness (yes, it can work...) to sign.
is perhaps to simply say "valid" implying that the notarial deed was valid (on the face of it). I don't see anything in the text to suggest that anybody's capacity (whether legal or mental) was under suspicion. Isn't the issue the possibility of forgery?
The original makes no suggestion as to the nature of the individual's validity. I do not think it is wise to infer anything that is not there, even if the intention is in fact relating to a particular facet of validity. We do not know. However, there are a couple of options which are quite satisfactory.
I don't give up the discussion :-). And, once again, I just want to argue in a friendly way as a colleague. It's OK if I am wrong. Does it make sense if I say that I find "of sound mind" too restrictive for "fit (and well)".?
Revocability : The essence of every Will is that it is revocable during the lifetime of the testator. People capable of making Wills are, Every person who is :
not a minor
of sound mind
free from fraud, coercion or undue influence
I am thinking maybe this would be referring to the state of health of Mr YY, so maybe something like "fit and well" / in good health would be on the right lines
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
7 mins confidence:
(apparently) valid at that time
Explanation: referring to the document not the person, i.e. valid at that time, but alleged later to be a forgerry
AllegroTrans United Kingdom Local time: 19:39 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 567
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
sonne et/ou pour anticiper le moment où la personne n'aura plus la capacité de prendre des .... ne sera plus titulaire d'un permis de conduire valable. .... a will, one condition is that the person in question is of 'sound mind'. The ... possible. Les déclarations anticipées peuvent pourtant constituer, dans le cadre d'une ...
A practical guide to estate planning and administration - Google Books Resultbooks.google.ca/books?isbn=140181798X...
Michael Gau - 2004 - Business & Economics - 317 pages
Holographic wills are recognized by the UPC and mam- states as being valid, ... Should personnel not directly involved in their drafting witness wills, or does that ... Competence has two elements — age or emancipation AND sound mind. ...
Wills, Trusts and Estates - Professor Frances Rudkowww.rongolini.com/trustsandestates.htmCached - Similar
You +1'd this publicly. Undo
To make a valid will one must be of sound mind though s/he need not possess ..... Medical personnel and institutions are protected from civil and criminal liability ...
lots more reference for this concept - to make a valid willl, there are 2 requirement (basically) - being an adult, and being of sound mind/mentally competent
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 2 hrs (2012-01-26 15:14:48 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
goodness - please excuse my typos etc. (ie 2 requirement) ... I was a little pressed for time :)
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 5 hrs (2012-01-26 18:39:42 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
valide - here does not (cannot) refer to physical fitness - it refers to legal fitness/capacity (sound mind)
"Le fait qu’une personne doive se faire aider par un conseiller ou un tuteur ne constitue pas un empêchement à sa capacité juridique de faire un testament."
gail desautels Canada Local time: 14:39 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 8
6 hrs confidence: peer agreement (net): +2
although competent
Explanation: Perhaps the use of the word "competent" avoids any potential misunderstandings with the word "fit", fit and able coming to mind, which often relates to physical states rather than mental. Indeed, even the prhase "sound of mind" might not be right here either as the term "valide" is not physical/mental specific. THat's why 'competent' might be a suitable option.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Local time: 20:39 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 174
Grading comment
Thanks for that this clever solution
I did not expect my question to provoke such a torrent of interesting debate. Thanks for everyone's contributions - they were all helpful
3 hrs confidence:
however valid
Explanation: I think "pourtant valide" refers to the "acte notarié", not the person. Isn't it saying that the "acte notarié", however valid, occurred outside of the presence of YY, but in the presence of XXX, who was representing YY?
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 3 hrs (2012-01-26 16:28:59 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
No, I agree with the other posters regarding "fit" or "able-bodied." Please disregard!
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 8 hrs (2012-01-26 21:30:00 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Adding this on to what AllegroTrans just said. I waffled a bit earlier, but do think there is merit to it referring to the deed, not the person.
Lauren Ransford Local time: 11:39 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 8