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à la manière d'un Lied

English translation: in the style of a Lied

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13:17 Jun 2, 2011

French to English translations [Non-PRO]
Art/Literary - Music

French term or phrase: à la manière d'un Lied

texte pour livret de Cd, se rapportant à la sonate pour Arpegionne en la mineur d.821 de franz Shubert, la phrase est la suivante:Adagio en mi majeur conçu à la manière d’un lied spécialement réservé au violoncelle tandis que le piano à un rôle d’accompagnement.

Ega KudoZ activity Questions: 190 (5 open) Answers: 0
Local time: 08:01

English translation:in the style of a Lied

Explanation:
again English retains the original German "lied"

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Note added at 8 mins (2011-06-02 13:25:47 GMT)
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Capitalisation of "lied"/"Lied" optional.

Selected response from:

Mike Birch
Local time: 07:01

Grading comment

thanks!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Summary of answers provided
4 +2	in the style of a Lied	Mike Birch
4 +1	Lieder style or Lied style	David Vaughn
4 -1	in Lied form	Kirsten Bodart

Answers

6 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +2

in the style of a Lied

Mike Birch
Local time: 07:01
Native speaker of:

English,

French
PRO pts in category: 8

Grading comment

thanks!

7 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +1

Lieder style or Lied style

Explanation:
Lieder, the plural, is more recognizable to a general audience

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Note added at 10 mins (2011-06-02 13:28:04 GMT)
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or "Lieder like"

talking about the cello, I would a assume a single "singing" melodic line.

David Vaughn
Local time: 08:01
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 176

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)

neutral

Mike Birch: but this is one is "specially reserved for the cello..."

2 mins

-> Well sure, but as long as you have the entire sentence, there is no ambiguity. I'd rather say that this is a more English way of saying it, but obviously that can be debated. Technically speaking, lieder for cello is impossible.

agree

Tony M: I agree about using the more familiar plural form 'Lieder'; perhaps 'after the fashion of...' or something like that, to take it further from a literal notion?

7 hrs

-> I take your point about phrasing, but I would want to see the entire context and style of the article to see how to approach that. The author seems a bit sloppy; I might try to tighten him up a bit.

agree

writeaway: I think 'in the style of a Lied' is stylistically better in this context. of course I have no idea of the style actually being used....

8 hrs

-> Yes, or, in the style of Leider. Or as Tony suggests, after the fashion" or some such. I wish the author was a more precise about what resembles Lieder - obviously this piece wasn't written for cello, so the sentence is already bancale.

disagree

Kirsten Bodart: Lied style has no definite definition. As vague as 'form'./I think I know that after 8 years of musical education. Form in musical theory is broader than merely 'form' a we understand it in mere language. It may also involve ways of composing. Like here.

8 hrs

-> But in music "form" is a word that has specific parameters. Style never is as specific in the context of classical music. Sonata form is very specific, Romantic style is very general. The context here is classical music where words have contextual meaning

2 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): -1

in Lied form

Explanation:
Referring to the way it is written. Maybe in three equal parts as opposed to theme-bridge-theme2 etc. There is not a certain style to Lieder, as they are rather pastoral and poetic originally, but the Kunstlied which came up in the 19th century was not to sing, but tp play. In that, it gave the parts a form that was like a Lied, but not a text. As such, the arpeggione in this case taking the role of the singing voice and the piano taking the accompaniment. Thus limiting the piano's role as a full partner in the piece as normal counterpoint would imply.

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Note added at 8 hrs (2011-06-02 22:13:38 GMT)
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This Adagio is a different form from a normal sonata form in the sense that it is composed through. The theme does not return at the end like in normal classical pieces. A late form of Lieder took on this shape. In combination with the verb 'concevoir' which precedes 'de la manière...' it suggests that the piece should be considered as, both in form and in manner of playing (distinctly different from other classical playing).

Reference: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:A_Dictionary_of_Music_and...

Kirsten Bodart
Germany
Local time: 08:01
Native speaker of:

Dutch,

English
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)

neutral

Tony M: I'd say that rather too much suggests there is a set form for Lieder (cf. sonata form, etc.), which I don't believe is the case.

4 hrs

-> There are several forms, as the encyclopedia Brittanica explains. It an be divided in stanzas or composed through.This Adagio is one of the last kind.

disagree

David Vaughn: The source you quote says the term "lied form" is "better [...] entirely abandoned" // Correction of your correction: He says different people have used it for different things, and suggests the term is best abandoned. But here it is not "form" at all.

4 hrs

-> Correction, it says 'it renders it doubtful whetherit had not better be entirely abandoned.' Due to the vagueness and then he goes on how it is used, which seems to me to fit better in this context than the word 'style'./ See encyclopedia Britannica form.

neutral

writeaway: correction, form is wrong. it's a mistranslation of à la manière de and does not fit better in this (or other) context

5 hrs

-> There is clearly a broader use of that phrase than meets the eye. Definitely.

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à la manière d'un Lied

English translation: in the style of a Lied

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à la manière d'un Lied

English translation: in the style of a Lied

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KudoZ™ translation helpThe KudoZ network provides a framework for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases.

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The KudoZ network provides a framework for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases.