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à la pointe du jour

English translation: at daybreak

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08:16 Aug 7, 2006
French to English translations [Non-PRO]
Other
French term or phrase: à la pointe du jour
il lui avait dit qu'il serait de retour près d'elle à la pointe du jour
thanks!
SeiTT
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:11
English translation:at daybreak
Explanation:
--
Selected response from:

Charlotte Allen
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:11
Grading comment
many thanks, excellent
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
4 +8at daybreak
Charlotte Allen
4COMMENT only, NFG
Tony M
3at dawnhirselina
3at the dawnxxxsergey


  

Answers


3 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +8
at daybreak


Explanation:
--

Charlotte Allen
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:11
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 8
Grading comment
many thanks, excellent

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  suezen: or at the break of day
5 mins

agree  Tony M: Yes, this is my favourite translation for it. / Oh, Sandra, that's interesting!
15 mins

agree  Uma Hariharan
30 mins

agree  Sandra Petch: very pretty (from the verb "poindre")
31 mins

agree  Cervin
1 hr

agree  xxxdf49f
2 hrs

agree  Alison Jenner
3 hrs

agree  1045
4 hrs
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3 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
at dawn


Explanation:
-

hirselina
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench, Native in DutchDutch
PRO pts in category: 12

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Tony M: Since it's not actually 'à l'aube', I'd prefer to use the dedicated word in En, which usually works well in expressions of time like this
16 mins
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4 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
at the dawn


Explanation:
.

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Note added at 4 hrs (2006-08-07 13:05:38 GMT)
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i wish native speakers of english tried to be less "native" about it and had a greater feel for it instead...
examples of 'at THE dawn':

Thirsting for bloody meat,
Out at the dawn we went.
Weighed with our prey at eve,
Home-came we all forespent.
Comrades and hunters tried
Ere we were maid and man --
Not till the spring awoke
Laughter and speech began.

http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/lit/poetry/Gene...

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Note added at 4 hrs (2006-08-07 13:08:32 GMT)
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Selections from the Diary of Private Joseph Plumb Martin
On that day, at the dawn, we discovered six ships of the line, all sixty-fours, a frigate of thirty-six guns and a galley in a line just below the ...
www.ushistory.org/March/other/martindiary.htm

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2006-08-07 13:10:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------


“Australia in Prophecy” - theTrumpet.com
“At the going down of the sun and at the dawn, we will remember them.” Four generations of Australians and New Zealanders have repeated these words over the ...
www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?page=book&id=832

xxxsergey
Local time: 04:11

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Tony M: It's rare that we need the definite article in a time expression like this./As I said, it's rare, the examples you quote are affected, archaic or poetic, but it wouldn't be appropriate for a more modern/natural everyday use. It's ALL about native feeling!
14 mins
  -> yes, at the dawn of something usually. i was in a hurry...PS see examples of 'at the dawn' though... PPS la pointe du jour - is affected and poetic, otherwise it would be l'aube. can't you feel it?!

neutral  xxxdf49f: at THE dawn not very native sounding -dawn= l'aube: slightly different from pointe du jour// :))) as Russian native, are you sure you're in a position to have any better native insight with Eng or French?// the initial argument was YOURS!! :))))
2 hrs
  -> with french being your native language are you sure you are in a position to make those judgements? especially when 'at the dawn' is acceptable, but rare? PS being 'native' has nothing to do with this, read vladimir nabokov for e.g.
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
COMMENT only, NFG


Explanation:
Regarding this issue of whether or not one can / should say 'the dawn' — as an ENS, one has an immediate 'feeling' for what sounds right or not.

Now we all know that 'dawn' is often used with 'the' when it refers to something else, as in "the dawn of a new era"

But just like 'night', 'day', and 'dusk', when used in everdyay expressions of time, it isn't usually used with the definite article — we would naturally say 'at night / around dusk / in daytime' — but of course 'during the night / day'.

If you use the definite article in a place where it is not normally to be expected, it stands out a mile, either as an affected ande deliberately archaic style, or perhaps poetically, maybe for reasons of scansion etc.

"Fear not, my Love, at the Dawn I shall return for you"

but

"He said he'd come back and fetch her at first light / dawn / daybreak"

Of course, there is no clear-cut, hard-and-fast rule that can be applied 100% objectively (Heaven forbid there should be!). It's a very subtle thing, quite difficult for a non-native speaker to grasp, especially when so many languages use articles so differently.

So while I certainly wouldn't 'disagree' witrh Sergey's initial answer, and am perfectly happy to accept that it was more a case of a minor slip-up than any error, neither would I say that it is the way I would probably choose to express it in a contemporary, everyday context.

Tony M
France
Local time: 05:11
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 282

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  xxxdf49f: yes, a question of insight, instinct // hi Tony: my thanks to you for your support :) (maybe I should hide my native language on profile like some??!! ;-)
3 hrs
  -> Thanks, Dominique! ;-))

disagree  xxxsergey: having looked into it, i am now certain that it wasn't even a slip. BTW as an ENS, one has an immediate 'feeling' - is not very good english!
21 hrs
  -> And why not, pray? // I really don't think you are linguistically justified in 'disagreeing' with what was after all only a comment and a statement of my own perceptions.
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Changes made by editors
Aug 7, 2006 - Changes made by writeaway:
LevelPRO » Non-PRO


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