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il n'est pas d'ordre

English translation: there can be no order (in religious terms which disregards the order of the world)

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19:11 Sep 21, 2007
French to English translations [PRO]
Social Sciences - Philosophy
French term or phrase: il n'est pas d'ordre
Woohoo! Translating heavy philosophy on a Friday night and my brain has simply shut down on this last sentence. Perhaps I will see clearer in the a.m., but any stabs at making it sound remotely English will be a great help to me. It's getting something down for the beginning (Il n’est pas d’ordre pour la religion qui puisse...) that's really bugging me.
Many thanks in advance.

«Il n’est pas d’ordre pour la religion, dit-il, qui puisse ignorer l’ordre du monde» car «la science est une, la vérité et une
French Foodie
Local time: 04:04
English translation:there can be no order (in religious terms which disregards the order of the world)
Explanation:
I suggest that "ordre" = "order" (though not a "religious order", which refers to Franciscans, etc.), philosophers choose their terms for reasons I won't dispute.

If so, the problem is just formulating the sentence. Perhaps "religion can posit no order which disregards the order of the world".

PS: I'd avoid "world order", which makes one think of GWBush.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 hrs (2007-09-22 08:36:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

PPS: To clarify my reading, "ordre" refers to "l'ordre naturel", or cosmology, the organizing principles of the universe (not to "command", "sequence" or "group of monks"). For the writer, religious cosmology cannot go in the face of scientific cosmology. You can quote that if you want.
Selected response from:

siragui
Local time: 04:04
Grading comment
Thank you very much everyone for your time and effort - especially on a weekend! I combined this answer with Melissa's "order of things".
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
3 +2there can be no order (in religious terms which disregards the order of the world)
siragui
4there is no ontology
B D Finch
4there is no (religious) order of things
Melissa McMahon
2 +2no set of principles in religion..katsy
3sugg
veratek
3there is no religious doctrine.....
Cervin
2 -1there is no religious order...
Emma Paulay


Discussion entries: 3





  

Answers


15 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5 peer agreement (net): -1
there is no religious order...


Explanation:
that can ignore the state of the world? I see a play on words with order as in "clergy" as well as "command" but I'm not at all confident.

Emma Paulay
France
Local time: 04:04
Native speaker of: English
Notes to answerer
Asker: Hi Emma, thanks. Nice to know someone else is out there on a Friday night :-)


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  1045: This has nothing to do with religious orders ...
21 mins
  -> Thanks. Perhaps you could enlighten us?

neutral  B D Finch: I like the play on words, but I think that it might distract from the meaning.
15 hrs
  -> Thanks BD
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49 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5 peer agreement (net): +2
no set of principles in religion..


Explanation:
... he says, can ignore/dismiss the world order...
there must be something better than 'set of principles', but that's all that comes to mind at present

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2007-09-21 20:49:29 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here's another stab - rather long-winded...
"No religion can propose a philosophy of life without taking the world order/the worldly order into account"

katsy
Local time: 04:04
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 3

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Anca Nitu: there is no commandment in ( any or a particular) religion that would be able to ignore worldy order- makes as much sense as the original :)
30 mins
  -> Thanks Anca :-) My goodness, puts you off philosophy, doesn't it? (not sure about commandment though - I think it's order as in structure...

agree  Jenny Duthie
56 mins
  -> Thank you J D :-)

neutral  B D Finch: Is the original about principles in the moral sense or about how one understands the world? While "principles" can be used in this way (scientific principles), I find it too ambiguous.
14 hrs
  -> Thanks BD for that comment. I had taken principles as in your example of 'scientific principles' and thought (hoped!) that 'set of' would make it clear it wasn't moral principles.
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
there is no religious doctrine.....


Explanation:
Just another idea-they are a bit slow in coming-it must be too late and I've had a busy day

Cervin
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:04
Works in field
Native speaker of: English
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13 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
there can be no order (in religious terms which disregards the order of the world)


Explanation:
I suggest that "ordre" = "order" (though not a "religious order", which refers to Franciscans, etc.), philosophers choose their terms for reasons I won't dispute.

If so, the problem is just formulating the sentence. Perhaps "religion can posit no order which disregards the order of the world".

PS: I'd avoid "world order", which makes one think of GWBush.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 hrs (2007-09-22 08:36:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

PPS: To clarify my reading, "ordre" refers to "l'ordre naturel", or cosmology, the organizing principles of the universe (not to "command", "sequence" or "group of monks"). For the writer, religious cosmology cannot go in the face of scientific cosmology. You can quote that if you want.

siragui
Local time: 04:04
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
Thank you very much everyone for your time and effort - especially on a weekend! I combined this answer with Melissa's "order of things".

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Melissa McMahon: reading "il n'est pas de" as "il n'y a pas de" - often the case in French philosophese
4 hrs
  -> Thanks Melissa, absolutely

agree  veratek: more or less with your sugg, "order" may be too ambiguous wo the explanation - perhaps "religion can posit no credo which disregards the order of the world".
11 hrs
  -> Thanks. I admit, "order" is a very ambiguous word.
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15 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
there is no ontology


Explanation:
As this is an academic work, I think that one can go for this term. I think that it does get at what the text is saying:

"There is no ontology available to religion which can ignore the ontology of the world outside."

B D Finch
France
Local time: 04:04
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 6

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Sarah Llewellyn: Yes, looking at it again, this is true, and Melissa does make a very good point. Shame, because your version was the first I was able to get my head around! (Philosophy is def not one of my strong points and I shall now be avoiding it at all costs!)
7 hrs
  -> Thanks, but I think that I do now agree that Siragui is right.

disagree  Melissa McMahon: For the same reason (ie that this is an academic work), I believe the author wouldn't have hesitated to use the word "ontology" if they wanted to use that flourish. It's a loaded term.
10 hrs
  -> Yes, I think that you are right and that the selected answer is the best.
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1 day36 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
sugg


Explanation:
it is not for religion to establish a doctrine/credo which disregards worldly reality/the existing order of the world/ the reality of the world

I like "ignores" too:
it is not for religion to establish a doctrine/credo which ignores worldly reality/the existing order of the world

veratek
Brazil
Local time: 23:04
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
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1 day5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
there is no (religious) order of things


Explanation:
Coming a bit late to the party, I know. I think this is how you can say what the text implies without getting caught up in the other type of religious order, Bush's 'world order' etc.

"There is no religious order of things, he says, can ignore the secular/wordly order."

For philosophical credentials, there's the English title of Foucault's Les Mots et les Choses - "The Order of Things", and indeed all ghits for this phrase seem to be philosophical.

Melissa McMahon
Australia
Local time: 12:04
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 66

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Francis Marche: "a secular order" is something else isn't it?
22 hrs
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