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traînée sonore

English translation: reverberation

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17:17 May 23, 2005
French to English translations [PRO]
Tech/Engineering - Physics / Acoustics
French term or phrase: traînée sonore
This is all to do with reverberation applied to PA systems.
As it's a PowerPoint presentation, there is little context.
"Effet de la traînée sonore ---> Diminution de la compréhension de la parole".

The site http://alphabruit.audiofr.com/html/isolation et correction d... gives the following explanation:

"Une salle est dite réverbérante lorsque les réflexions multiples sont perçues comme une traînée sonore, c'est à dire lorsque le local est grand et/ou que les parois sont lisses. A l'inverse, lorsque le son n'est pas réfléchi par les parois, qui absorbent, à chaque impact une partie importante ou la totalité de l'énergie sonore incidente, le local est dit sourd ou anéchoïque.

En acoustique courante, la durée de réverbération, appelée aussi temps de réverbération ou temps de Sabine, est le paramètre qui est utilisé pour caractériser l'acoustique d'une salle.

La correction acoustique peut de ce fait être définie comme l'ensemble des techniques qui consistent à adapter la durée de réverbération d'un local à l'usage qui en est fait.

Supposons que l'on émette dans un local un son de fréquence déterminée ; après interruption de la source, il subsiste par suite des réflexions multiples des ondes une traînée sonore. La durée de réverbération est le temps correspondant à une décroissance de 60 dB du niveau de cette traînée sonore."

Now this to me sounds like a synonym of reverberation...
Anyone have a better idea?
David Goward
France
Local time: 07:27
English translation:reverberation
Explanation:
I've worked a lot in acoustics, and I've been racking my brains to think of any other term, but I've come to the conclusion that there isn't one. True, the real, technically-accurate meaning of reverberation is 'the process of successive reflections' of the sound (as it is correctly being used in the FR document), but we also use the term slightly more losely to mean 'the dying away of a sound', which is the meaning they are using here as 'traînée...'

In both the examples you give, it is my belief that the best technical term to use would be 'reverberation':

"Effect of reverberation --- reduced speech intelligibilty"

and in your reference:

"The reverberation time is the time taken for this reverberation to die away to -60 dB"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 mins (2005-05-23 17:40:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I can\'t find any references on Google to either \'sound wake\' or \'sound trail\' that are relevant or meaningful in your given context; as far as I know, neither of these terms is at any rate appropriate in the technical register given.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs 4 mins (2005-05-23 19:22:34 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

WATCH OUT!


\'Reverb effect\' usually refers to the special audio effect of adding \'reverb\' or \'echo\' to a sound for musical (etc.) reasons; be VERY CAREFUL using the term \'reverb effect\' (to be deprecated) on order to mean \'the effect of reverberation OR room acosutics\'

No, \'decay\' is not really an interchangeable term, certainly in your own context, and doesn\'t really even work as a substitute in the ref. you found; \"reverberation time is the time taken for this reverb to decay to -60 dB\" if you like...



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 hrs 51 mins (2005-05-24 06:09:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Michele has asked me to explain the reasons for my \'neutral\' comment on her suggestion, so I am reluctantly adding a note here as being the only way of doing so, since I think it is useful to keep the discussion public.

Michele suggested \'sound reverberation and absorption\'

Both these terms are, of course, perfectly valid in themselves; my only quibble is with their appropriateness in Asker\'s context.

And my only real argument is that in the case stated, it seems almost certain that it is only the reverberation part that is applicable to speech intelligibility, and not the absorption part. If absorption were part of the issue, it is more likely to refer to \'audibility\' than \'intelligibility\'. And there is no suggestion in the given context that we are talking about sound absorption as well as (or instead of) reverberation; in fact, unwanted reverberation is a much more common problem to need to deal with, and to some extent the phenomena are mutually exclusive... Perhaps Asker could elucidate a little as to the overall nature of this document?

Furthermore, the added word \'sound\' is entirely redundant (assuming that Asker\'s context makes it quite clear we are talking about acoustics!) --- so we are back to just good old reverberation: short, sharp and to the point (though clearly the acoustics may not be!), and eminently suitable I\'d have thought to replace the 2 words in Asker\'s PPT heading.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 hrs 35 mins (2005-05-24 06:52:54 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Oh dear, here I go again! To expand slightly on my comment regarding Bourth\'s suggestion of \'persistent sound\'.

Indeed, it is true that this IS a valid term, and IS sometimes used in exactly the sense required here; my quibble with using this in Asker\'s context is simply that it would be less clear taken in isolation in this PPT heading than the alternative \'reverb(eration)\'.

\'Persistent sound\' without any of the surrounding explanation would sound quite odd as being the reason for \'reduced speech intelligibility\' --- one might argue that \'persistence of sound\' or \'sound persistence\' would be clearer, but neither is as neat as \'reverb\' IMO.

The whole problem lies with this idea of \'persistent\' in the non-technical sense (persistent offender, persistent liar, etc.). In isolation, as in Asker\'s context, it might be misinterpreted as \'persistent unwanted background noise\' (like a pneumatic drill outside the window...). You see what I mean? Somehow this term is just not as clear and unequivocal when used in an isolated situation like this.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 hrs 44 mins (2005-05-24 09:01:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In the light of that extra context, David, I stand by my original suggestion; seems to fit perfectly into the sequence of topics you describe.

Sound absorption is a much less likely problem in most public locations.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 hrs 45 mins (2005-05-24 09:03:14 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In addition, your illustration of the blurred \'bateau\' suggests exactly \'reverberation\'; for it to be \'absorption\', it would have to be in tiny print!
Selected response from:

Tony M
France
Local time: 07:27
Grading comment
Thanks, especially for all the extra info.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
4 +2reverberation
Tony M
4Sound trailAnna Maria Augustine at proZ.com
4sound reverberation and absorptionMichele Fauble
4sound wakeJane Lamb-Ruiz
2persistent soundxxxBourth


Discussion entries: 4





  

Answers


13 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
traînée sonore
Sound trail


Explanation:
Sound trail

This is on the internet but no other info available.

Anna Maria Augustine at proZ.com
France
Local time: 07:27
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in FrenchFrench
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20 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
traînée sonore
sound wake


Explanation:
can also be..can't search internet now but what comes behind a sound can be a wake also

Jane Lamb-Ruiz
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in PortuguesePortuguese
PRO pts in category: 4
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
traînée sonore
sound reverberation and absorption


Explanation:
...induces important sound reverberation and absorption leading to diminution of the signal energy as well as ...
www.doaj.org/abstract?id=92771&toc=y

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs 53 mins (2005-05-23 20:11:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

or \'reverberant sound decay\'

.. Reverberant Sound Decay. Whether from a sound impulse or a steady sound which ceases, the reverberant sound in an auditorium decays ...
www.kemt.fei.tuke.sk/Predmety/ KEMT422_SPAS/_web/Hyperphysics/reverb.html


Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 22:27
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Tony M: Both are valid terms, but neither would be appropriate in Asker's exact PPT heading context... // Sure, I'll have to add a note to my own answer, give me a few minutes...
9 mins
  -> Could you explain why, since you say 'the dying away of a sound', which is the meaning they are using here as 'traînée...' ? //Thanks for the explanation.
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20 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
traînée sonore
reverberation


Explanation:
I've worked a lot in acoustics, and I've been racking my brains to think of any other term, but I've come to the conclusion that there isn't one. True, the real, technically-accurate meaning of reverberation is 'the process of successive reflections' of the sound (as it is correctly being used in the FR document), but we also use the term slightly more losely to mean 'the dying away of a sound', which is the meaning they are using here as 'traînée...'

In both the examples you give, it is my belief that the best technical term to use would be 'reverberation':

"Effect of reverberation --- reduced speech intelligibilty"

and in your reference:

"The reverberation time is the time taken for this reverberation to die away to -60 dB"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 mins (2005-05-23 17:40:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I can\'t find any references on Google to either \'sound wake\' or \'sound trail\' that are relevant or meaningful in your given context; as far as I know, neither of these terms is at any rate appropriate in the technical register given.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs 4 mins (2005-05-23 19:22:34 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

WATCH OUT!


\'Reverb effect\' usually refers to the special audio effect of adding \'reverb\' or \'echo\' to a sound for musical (etc.) reasons; be VERY CAREFUL using the term \'reverb effect\' (to be deprecated) on order to mean \'the effect of reverberation OR room acosutics\'

No, \'decay\' is not really an interchangeable term, certainly in your own context, and doesn\'t really even work as a substitute in the ref. you found; \"reverberation time is the time taken for this reverb to decay to -60 dB\" if you like...



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 hrs 51 mins (2005-05-24 06:09:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Michele has asked me to explain the reasons for my \'neutral\' comment on her suggestion, so I am reluctantly adding a note here as being the only way of doing so, since I think it is useful to keep the discussion public.

Michele suggested \'sound reverberation and absorption\'

Both these terms are, of course, perfectly valid in themselves; my only quibble is with their appropriateness in Asker\'s context.

And my only real argument is that in the case stated, it seems almost certain that it is only the reverberation part that is applicable to speech intelligibility, and not the absorption part. If absorption were part of the issue, it is more likely to refer to \'audibility\' than \'intelligibility\'. And there is no suggestion in the given context that we are talking about sound absorption as well as (or instead of) reverberation; in fact, unwanted reverberation is a much more common problem to need to deal with, and to some extent the phenomena are mutually exclusive... Perhaps Asker could elucidate a little as to the overall nature of this document?

Furthermore, the added word \'sound\' is entirely redundant (assuming that Asker\'s context makes it quite clear we are talking about acoustics!) --- so we are back to just good old reverberation: short, sharp and to the point (though clearly the acoustics may not be!), and eminently suitable I\'d have thought to replace the 2 words in Asker\'s PPT heading.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 hrs 35 mins (2005-05-24 06:52:54 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Oh dear, here I go again! To expand slightly on my comment regarding Bourth\'s suggestion of \'persistent sound\'.

Indeed, it is true that this IS a valid term, and IS sometimes used in exactly the sense required here; my quibble with using this in Asker\'s context is simply that it would be less clear taken in isolation in this PPT heading than the alternative \'reverb(eration)\'.

\'Persistent sound\' without any of the surrounding explanation would sound quite odd as being the reason for \'reduced speech intelligibility\' --- one might argue that \'persistence of sound\' or \'sound persistence\' would be clearer, but neither is as neat as \'reverb\' IMO.

The whole problem lies with this idea of \'persistent\' in the non-technical sense (persistent offender, persistent liar, etc.). In isolation, as in Asker\'s context, it might be misinterpreted as \'persistent unwanted background noise\' (like a pneumatic drill outside the window...). You see what I mean? Somehow this term is just not as clear and unequivocal when used in an isolated situation like this.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 hrs 44 mins (2005-05-24 09:01:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In the light of that extra context, David, I stand by my original suggestion; seems to fit perfectly into the sequence of topics you describe.

Sound absorption is a much less likely problem in most public locations.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 hrs 45 mins (2005-05-24 09:03:14 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In addition, your illustration of the blurred \'bateau\' suggests exactly \'reverberation\'; for it to be \'absorption\', it would have to be in tiny print!

Tony M
France
Local time: 07:27
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 40
Grading comment
Thanks, especially for all the extra info.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Jane Lamb-Ruiz: yes it boils down to reverb
35 mins
  -> Thanks, Jane! In fact, I think you've hit the nail on the head there, to enable Asker to differentiate, you could just use the shortened term

agree  Michele Fauble: www.rt60.net/trucs2.htm
2 hrs
  -> Merci, Michele !
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
traînée sonore
persistent sound


Explanation:
Ghets a few gits, together with "sound persistence":

For acoustical purposes reverberation is defined as the time required for the persistent sound to decay, or diminish, by 60 decibels, ...
www.zainea.com/knudsen.htm

dropped into a room with a fairly short 0.8 second reverberation time. ...
are just swamped by the persistent sound field slowly decaying behind it. ...
www.mcsquared.com/y-reverb.htm

To estimate direction of arrival of persistent sound, the pose of the microphones is ... was made to the room, therefore the room exhibits reverberation ...
www.cs.yorku.ca/techreports/1999/CS-1999-09.pdf

The church selected Convergent based on Long's ability to articulate a solution to a persistent sound reverberation problem in the main sanctuary. ...
www.infocomm.org/newsnetwork/Installations/ index.cfm?objectID=32A4A795-553E-11D5-9853009027B231EA
[though I can't say if they had a persistent problem of sound reverberation or a problem of reverberation of persistent sound]


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 hrs 13 mins (2005-05-24 13:31:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Dusty:
I must admit I was step removed from the original question and was looking for an alternative, a synonym for \"reverberation\", as \"elegant variation\" because I was thinking in terms of the passage Asker quoted:
<<Une salle est dite **réverbérante** lorsque les réflexions multiples sont perçues comme une **traînée sonore**>>.

xxxBourth
Local time: 07:27
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 28

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Tony M: Last ref. is almost certainly IMO 'persistent problem'; I suspect the provenance of others (one is .ca, for a start...); it IS a valid term, but sits uneasily in Asker's context // All very valid points, Alex :-)
7 hrs
  -> I'm sure you're right; see my comment (justification!) above.
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