English translation: Skin tone & texture (complexion)
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23:28 Sep 7, 2011
French to English translations [PRO] Art/Literary - Poetry & Literature / Archaic Greek poetry
French term or phrase:Carnation
Last question about this article; the passage starts out with some lines of verse and then goes into a discussion of those lines:
'"Et, en apercevant de mes yeux Echécratidas
à la chevelure aux reflets lumineux, je saisirais sa main
pour que [me touche] la jeune fleur de son corps plein de charme
et que par son regard il verse sur moi une libation de désir liquéfiant.
Et moi, étendu auprès de l’adolescent parmi les fleurs,
je passerais un moment de bonheur délicat…"
Quel que soit le scénario sous-jacent à cette scène offerte sur le mode du potentiel dans des vers une fois encore très fragmentaire, centrale est à nouveau, dans l’expression poétique du désir érotique, la fluidité du regard qui liquéfie. Et c’est ici très précisément la carnation du jeune homme qui exerce son charme par le désir véhiculé par le regard.'
My problem is with the closing sentences. I translate: 'Whatever the scenario that lies behind this hypothetical scene described in lines that are, once again, very fragmentary, what is once again central to the poetic expression of erotic desire is the fluidity of the gaze which liquefies. And it is precisely here that we find the carnality of the young man who exercises his attractiveness through lust transmitted by the gaze.' I think this is accurate, but once again the meaning is opaque. Thanks again!
My translation of the final sentence will thus be something like 'And here it is very precisely the complexion of the young man which produces charm, a charm created by desire transmitted by a look'. Thanks to everyone for the help, but especially to Clain, who I think was essentially correct in his interpretation.
Now let's move to the interpretative comment, 'c’est ici très précisément la carnation du jeune homme qui exerce son charme par le désir véhiculé par le regard'. Clain is right, I think that 'qui' refers back to 'carnation', not to 'jeune homme'. Having seen what is going on in the poem, we can now understand that the 'désir véhiculé par le regard' is the desire of Echecratidas transmitted to the speaker by the look of Echecratidas. Why is it so obvious to the speaker that Echecratidas (at least in the speaker's longing imagination) desires him? Here we need to pick up another phrase from the poem, 'la jeune fleur de son corps plein de charme', 'the young flower of his body full of charm'. Nothing tells us what precisely this 'young flower' is, but it seems that the writer of this article (and a few translators of the Greek poem) take it to be Echecratidas' skin or complexion, his 'carnation'. Echecratidas' complexion 'effects his charm' through his desire, which is transmitted by his look. In other words, Echecratidas is blushing, which shows the speaker that Echecratidas desires him, which is a delight to the speaker and only makes the speaker more desirous of Echecratidas
Many thanks for all your suggestions. I've read them all and looked again at the passage and this is what I now think about how it should be translated. There's a phrase in the quoted lines of poetry that I now realize is important for understanding the interpretative comments that follow. It runs, 'par son regard il verse sur moi une libation de désir liquéfiant', 'with his gaze he pours on me a libation of liquefying desire'. This could mean that Echecratidas' face fills the speaker with desire. Or it could mean that Echecratidas' look shows the speaker that Echecratidas has desire for the speaker, and this desire of Echecratidas' liqeufies the speaker. I prefer the second interpretation, because 'regard' to me implies an active 'look' or 'gaze', not just a passive 'face'. A problem with this is that it's unusual in poetry of this period for the beloved to be already in love with the speaker in a poem; but note that this is a hypothetical statement: the speaker is fantasizing about Echecratidas' look betraying that his is in love with the speaker; there's no need to believe this is actually happening. [continued above]
Ha! I was going to say that it couldn't be a fragment from Sappho, but according to Clain's entry, it could well be a kind of inverted Sappho. :-)
In spite of the obvious sexual allusions in the fragment, it is still on the surface about LOOKS and EYES, and, moreover, "carnation" has never, to my knowledge, referred to the male organ, either prosaically or poetically, although I love mediamatrix's interpretation.
Et contemplant de mes yeux Echécratidas (....)
Aux blonds cheveux je prendrais sa main (....)
Pour (toucher) la jeune fleur de sa peau délicieuse
Et il verserait de ses paupières le désir amoureux...
The use of the conditional shows that this is all a hypothetical situation (the previous page in the link explains that the poet (who is a man) is old and is remembering a possible past).
Here is an English version of this fragment:
And seeing blond Echecratidas with my eyes,
I would take his hand,
While he drips the flower of youth from his comely skin,
And alluring desire from his eyelids.
This is hardly the place for a thesis on human biology. I nevertheless think it may help the Asker if I point out - especially to those who insist on using a straightforward dictionary translation of 'carnation' in this context - that 'carnation' in the commentary refers to the phrase "la jeune fleur de son corps " in the extract from the poem. And the commentator sets the scene quite unequivocably with the phrase "l’expression poétique du désir érotique", leaving us in little doubt that "la jeune fleur de son corps " and "carnation" are both references to the fellow's penis. It's 'carnation' in the sense of 'carnal knowledge': en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnal_knowledge
Well, I don't want to show off here, but still, I have a degree in Fr Lit. (and years of Latin & ancient greek) and Clain is right ( and it goes with my answer) carnation comes from latin caro= chair=flesh & it gave carnagione in Italian (complexion) & carnation in French= complexion also.
On a strict grammar point of view, clain is right again. "Qui" goes with carnation.
By the way carnation in France is not a word that is rarely used. In example, it is being used on every single bottle/Packaging of skin foundation cream (make up)
Shiseido:
"Appliquez-les sur le contour du visage au niveau du cou et choisissez la teinte la plus proche de votre carnation." http://www.ca-f.shiseido.com/basemakeup/howto_select.htm
this is about poetry, and poets and literary critics - together with architects - have not only the right but almost the duty to stretch the "meanings", connotations, and associations of words, to twist language to suit their whims and fancies.
What is more, a word like carnation, unlike oeillet, is hardly commonplace and as such lends itself particularly well to this sort of treatment since few people know what it means, as defined by dictionaries, to start with.
I understand that it is tempting to try to see a metaphorical meaning here, but I don't think it's correct to go that far.
I think what is being said is that the coloring of the young man's face (some kind of glow?) is the result of his desire, and that is what is charming the young woman. I think that the ''qui'' goes with ''carnation''. Not an easy line to interpret.
I also verified in the ''Dictionnaire d'autrefois'', to see older meanings of ''carnation''. Nothing different there. All the definitions deal with the ''teint'' or ''couleur'' of the skin:
Explanation: Not a 'traditional' translation of 'carnation', but one which fits the context, methinks - even if it means rethinking 'lust' as the translation of 'charme'.
The translation workplace 
peer agreement (net): +1