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09:25 Nov 5, 2011
French to English translations [Non-PRO] Social Sciences - Poetry & Literature / relation amoureuse
French term or phrase:amour pédé chaste hétéro
Voici les phrases extraits du roman 'Le Fils'
: Un peu plus tard, papa se retrouve seul avec Jean-Pierre dans la piece au cercueil (de Simon qui est mort). Les deux hommes se tournent soudain l'un vers l'autre, ils s'etreignent en larmes, eux deux enlaces pour la premiere fois dans leur amour pede chaste hetero a l'ombre bienveillante de Simon. Papa et Jean-Pierre ne s'etaient jamais dit encore qu'ils s'aimaient tant...
Comment comprendre cet 'amour pede chaste hetero' (a la fois!!)?
Explanation: The novel 'Le Fils' does not seem to be about homosexuals or anything of that sort. It is about a (dead) son who tells of his family's grief over his death. "Pédé" refers to the fact that the love is between two men, but I don't think it is love of a sexual kind. It evokes the idea that deep love between two men, be they father and son, cousins or anything else is seen as a little strange. However, because the narrator is dead, he can say things which are slightly controversial as they happen in his unseen presence. The two men would never have done what they did and have said what they said if they were not in the presence of only a dead man, right?
... that the author has chosen to employ a highly emotive term that definitely implies a judgement of homosexuality, at least on the part of the narrator.
That said, however, I do totally acknowledge that the term is often bandied around in a relatively harmless way be people (especially young, contemporary people) in a way that might just suggest 'a bit poofy' or whatever; but while the expression makes no quantitative comment about the depth of the love between these two men, the use of this particular term inevitably implies a degree of qualitative comment.
is the son of Papa (duh) and is 21 years old who suddenly succumbed to meningitis in a mere 24 hours. I have not been able to see who Jean-Pierre is, but at any rate the book starts with something along the lines of '11 days after my death, daddy went to the shop to sell my quilt'. It is essentially about how a father and by extension Lion's whole family deals with the death of such a young person. It is acclaimed for its 'pudeur', has not been found controversial as far as I can see and I have not been able to find the idea of homosexuality in any of the opinions expressed online. As this is a very recent novel (this year it won a prestigious prize), I don't think we have to look into the homosexual side of things.
What may be the case though is that Lion finds this behaviour of his father quite strange and finds it too unmanly. The scene with Simon in his coffin takes place about 6 months prior to Lion's death.
I agree up to a point with Charlie's comment here; but I think the choice of the word does to some extent invite the interpretation that it is only chaste so far. To me, there is the sense that it is described as 'chaste' because it could be something else, as distinct from 'platonic', which leaves no room for doubt in the matter.
As Alex has said, we really need to know a lot more about the characters, and how the story develops, in order to see what slant (if any) to put on it at this stage in the plot.
Funnily enough, I only recently watched again the film « Coquillages et Crustacées », which this question immediately made me think of.
Sounds a bit like "bromance" to me, although the word might be a bit too jocular. So perhaps the more straightforward "man love" might work. Hard to give you links for just those 2 words, but a search for "straight man love" gives the thrust of the thing (!), as indeed does "I have * man love for". I'm afraid I don't see "chaste" as unconsommated (i.e. with a sexual element that is unfulfilled) but rather more as simply platonic, non-sexual, innocent even - at least at this stage in the story.
The realtionship between the two men as in brothers friends?
It gives the impression that the man or men are able to express their emotions between themselves but not when they are with their wives or girlfriends.
Anyway that's how I understand it.
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
1 hr confidence: peer agreement (net): +2
amour pede chaste hetero
unconsummated queer love between straights / straight men/guys
Explanation: Haha, I know this one!
Let's remember that pédé can be an insulting word (and in passing, do please let's note that it stands for pédéraste and not pédophile!), and like similar words in EN, can be used in a non-derogatory way by more-or-less involved persons who reclaim it for themselves — and this is I believe how it is being used here, as a term of affection rather than reproof. The word 'queer' is used similarly in today's gay culture, and I think fits perfectly in this text.
I'm not sure about keeping 'chaste' in EN, which I think has a slightly different connotation from what I believe is intended here in FR; there must be other words that could be even better, but for the moment, I can only think of 'unconsummated' — which I suggest rather than 'platonic', as it always leaves open the possibility that once poor old Simon is 6ft under, they might possibly move on to something else... which may possibly be hinted at in the author's « .. ne s'étaient jamais dit encore ... », suggesting that maybe they are moving in that direction now.
I think the apposition of pédé / hétéro definitely invites the corresponding queer / straight coupling in EN.
I can't quite agree with Alex's use of '-cum-' — despite his unaccustomed spurt of attempted humour, I can't help feeling this would be out of register here. :-)
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 heure (2011-11-05 10:30:44 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
There can exist a kind of 'pure' love between guys who would certainly identify as 'straight', which can scarcely really be described as 'homosexual', since there may not really be any 'sexual' element in it — hence why, in a way, 'queer' (used affectionately, not pejoratively) could be a good way to describe it; sadly, we don't really have a huge vocabulary for 'love between men', which after all can take all forms and occur on many levels.
Tony M France Local time: 15:16 Works in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 120
Notes to answerer
Asker: Your explanation is very helpful.. But it's my fault not to have given to you enough information about the story... Thank a lot, anyway..
2 hrs confidence:
amour pede chaste hetero
deep love between two men
Explanation: The novel 'Le Fils' does not seem to be about homosexuals or anything of that sort. It is about a (dead) son who tells of his family's grief over his death. "Pédé" refers to the fact that the love is between two men, but I don't think it is love of a sexual kind. It evokes the idea that deep love between two men, be they father and son, cousins or anything else is seen as a little strange. However, because the narrator is dead, he can say things which are slightly controversial as they happen in his unseen presence. The two men would never have done what they did and have said what they said if they were not in the presence of only a dead man, right?
Kirsten Bodart Germany Local time: 15:16 Specializes in field Native speaker of: Dutch, English PRO pts in category: 4
Explanation: L'amour et la sexualité sont deux choses qui ne se comprennent - et ne se discutent - pas, like colours and politics.
I've not simply thrown "cum" in for good sexual measure (10cc is average, so they say, hence the band (it gets bilingually worse ...!)) , it's a legitimate word :
cum prep. with: used, chiefly in hyphenated compounds, with the general meaning "combined with", "plus" [vaudeville-cum-burlesque]
[Webster's]
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 20 mins (2011-11-05 09:45:40 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
hetEro
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 25 mins (2011-11-05 09:50:44 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
A lot of (disturbed) people probably consider that any close friendship between men is "chaste homo love". People might say that of the relationship between me and Tony, for instance, but they are wrong: I'm not chaste and he's not homo!
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 1 hr (2011-11-05 11:11:15 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Who are these people? Presumably papa is hetero (in appearances at least). Is Jean-Pierre gay, and burying his partner, Simon? If this is the case, there need be no insinuation about any in-the-closet homosexuality on anyone's part. There are many kinds of homosexuals, the camps, the in-your-face, the aggressives, the leathers, the promiscuous, the I'll-tell-you-all-about-what-Maurice-did-to-me-last-night, and the quiet, unpromiscuous (that is not to say chaste) reclusives you'd hardly guess were gay. As with my Paris neighbours Alain and Georges, you can get two types forming a couple. Alain was neat, shy and retiring, perceptibly gay, Georges rough, unshaven, and hardly perceptibly gay - and a lover of cats.
I wonder if Jean-Pierre and Simon were in a long-standing, faithful relationship, making J-P "chaste" in the eyes of the speaker.
He and "papa" might have been good friends, but who kept their distance, people who might have readily embraced and "kissed" (in the French sense) each other (as close French male friends do) had J-P not been gay - for fear of misunderstanding, if not by themselves, then by onlookers. A bit like politicians refusing even the "diplomatic handshake" to certain heads of state.
Funerals can change relationships. It is a time when you can overcome inhibitions and express hitherto repressed feelings, even if only momentarily. In France that can mean kissing and hugging a person, male or female, even if only as a greeting, whose hand you would have shaken previously. Since a recent funeral I have been on embracing terms with male members of the deceased's family I hardly know, whereas previously it was handshake only.
So "papa" and J-P embrace because the situation makes it "normal" to do so, despite inhibitions. That they "loved each other so" need not imply sexual attachment. They may have loved each other as friends but never expressed that (platonic) affection through physical contact - other than those "manly" slaps on the shoulder or punch in the ribs. "Papa" is hetero, J-P is "unpromiscuously gay" - in which case my "cum" is out, which will please Tony, so to speak. "Love" might be too strong too, and my answer should read "hetero - quiet/chaste/unpromiscuous gay affection".
The above is pure guesswork. Does it fit your scenario?
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 4 hrs (2011-11-05 13:33:18 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
Just to underscore my interpretation while awaiting more context or at least some punctuation, I'm reading this as "amour pede chaste / hetero" or "l'amour (platonique; affection, profonde amitié) entre un pédé chaste et un hétéro.
Any normal, well-balanced heterosexual male should be able to enjoy friendship with any normal, well-balanced homosexual male in the same way he enjoys friendship with other heterosexual males with whom common interests are shared. There should be no reason why sexual preferences outside that relationship should get in the way of things, even if for many people (who maybe are not mature, well-balanced, etc.) they do.
xxxBourth Local time: 15:16 Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 110
The translation workplace 
peer agreement (net): +2
