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jeu du gendarme et du voleur

English translation: keeping one step ahead of the game


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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:jeu du gendarme et du voleur
English translation:keeping one step ahead of the game
Entered by: Eutychus
Options:
- Contribute to this entry
- Include in personal glossary

09:18 Jan 4, 2008
French to English translations [PRO]
Social Sciences - Social Science, Sociology, Ethics, etc. / security
French term or phrase: jeu du gendarme et du voleur
from a text on security issues as each side attempts to outdo the other

"C’est l’éternel jeu du gendarme et du voleur…"

My brain is in hibernation this morning. Can somebody tell me if there is an equivalent idiomatic phrase in English?
Eutychus
Local time: 23:44
one-upmanship
Explanation:
One-upmanship
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One-upmanship is the systematic and conscious practice of making one's associates feel inferior and thereby gaining the status of being "one-up" on them
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-upmanship

I can't say for certain what the true definition should be here! (cops & robbers / cat and mouse.....). While the phrase initially seems obvious - cops and robbers; it's true that cat & mouse would seem to make more sense....

Anyway, here's my suggestion if you're looking for a phrase that gives the impression of out doing each other

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2008-01-04 11:08:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Ref asker's last note about getting the edge on each other:

'a never-ending cycle of staying one step ahead of the game'

Staying One Step Ahead of the Hackers
http://emagazine.credit-suisse.com/app/article/index.cfm?fus...

Ahn Lab has always tried to be one step ahead of online security threats
http://world.kbs.co.kr/english/economynit/econit_company_det...

Great hackers are always one step ahead of the game
http://www.paintballstar.com/pn/modules.php?op=modload&name=...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2008-01-04 11:20:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

But as Sony tries to stay one step ahead of the hackers, the anonymous programmers are trying some new tricks of their own
http://www.wired.com/gaming/gamingreviews/news/2005/06/67742...

or: A CONSTANT GAME OF CATCH / CATCH UP

Being in the security business is a constant game of catch up.
http://bizsecurity.about.com/od/holisticviewofsecurity/a/Cat...

In the never-ending cat-and-mouse game between hackers and those charged with stopping them, it's pretty clear who's winning--and it's not the cat.
http://www.informationweek.com/software/showArticle.jhtml?ar...

there are many options, if you google a few key words...
Selected response from:

juliebarba
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:44
Grading comment
Thanks. I think what I've learned most from this fascinating series of exchanges is that some people see the point of "cops and robbers" as catching the criminal, while for others the goal is not being caught! I'm not sure what that says about our various personalities! In the mean time, taking a look at my text after the weekend, I think that "one step ahead of the game" fits best in my context. Many thanks to all for your interesting contributions.
3 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
3 +8game of cops and robbers
suezen
4never-ending battle
Anne de Freyman
3 +1one-upmanship
juliebarba
4getting the jump and keeping the leadxxxBourth
3a game of leapfrogkatsy
3it's a typical case of both sides constantly upping the ante....xxxCMJ_Trans
3game of tug of war
Emma Paulay
2a game of Cowboys and Indians
Kathryn Strachecky


Discussion entries: 6





  

Answers


2 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +8
game of cops and robbers


Explanation:
perhaps

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 38 mins (2008-01-04 09:56:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

but surely if it's between hackers and computer security experts, then it's exactly that ... cops and robbers ...
look at this link for example
http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:4rhOE-F3Ch0J:www.zdnet....

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 40 mins (2008-01-04 09:58:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

or these ...
Security is NOT a game! " sure it is, like cops and robbers; Posted by: lmaxwell Posted .... WinXP: *OPEN INVITATION TO VIRUS & HACKERS* cecker | 10/24/03 ...
talkback.zdnet.com/5208-1009-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=116&messageID=1446&start=-9910 - 76k
Playing cops and robbers with cybersecurity | CNET News.com's Charles Cooper says ... If Microsoft's cash bounties convince any hackers to rat out fellow ...
www.news.com/Playing-cops-and-robbers-with-cybersecurity/20... - 47k
Information security continues to be a serious concern for managements all over the ... Software companies regularly play ‘cops and robbers’ with hackers. ...
www.garamchai.com/mohan/ITP01Mar04.htm - 51k


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 42 mins (2008-01-04 10:00:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

the way I understand cops and robbers is one side trying to outwit the other side, not 'catch' the other ...

suezen
Local time: 23:44
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 145
Notes to answerer
Asker: I feel rather in the minority here with CMJ_Trans, but I don't think that this means what "cops and robbers" means.

Asker: Thanks for the example, but I'm still not convinced that this means what I'm sure the French means. I think your article is talking about *catching* the criminals, which is not the point understood by this phrase in French ("l'*éternel* jeu...)

Asker: We must have been in different school playgrounds ;) Thoughts from any others?


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  katsy: Happy New Year suezen! That's what came to my mind too./ Still think this is the best solution... after all, when the robbers are caught the game is over - all the fun is in the chase etc.PLUS I played cops and robbers in my school playground...
0 min
  -> Hi Katsy! HNY to you too :-)

agree  Sandra Petch: First thing that came to mind too :-) Happy New Year!
1 min
  -> Hi Sandra! HNY :-)

agree  Ségolène Neilson: it is not a board game but a team game
13 mins
  -> Hi Ségolène! HNY :-)

neutral  xxxCMJ_Trans: killjoy again: I also first thought of this but http://www.drinksmixer.com/games/44/ - suggests that it may just not work in this particular context//one would more easily use the expression in French here and perhaps something else in Eng /too long ago !
14 mins
  -> I don't think it's intended in the concrete but rather in the abstract sense of the term ... in other words each side trying to outdo the other/ personally, I think it sounds more Engl than Fr ... didn't you ever play cops & robbers as a child? :-)

agree  EJP
20 mins

agree  Amanda Ménage
46 mins

disagree  xxxBourth: Translates the words without capturing the meaning and throwing it into clink.
1 hr
  -> not at all Bourth ... the idea is that the robbers (hackers) want to outwit the cops (security experts) & each side plays the centuries-old game ... see all the links which use the same idea. Never mind! HNY! :-)

neutral  Charlie Bavington: Literally maybe, but something doesn't sit right with me, it just doesn't "fit" somehow. Maybe the source is clumsy/badly expressed too....? In which case we are in 'should we improve the original' territory?
1 hr
  -> I just think they're making a parallel in this case as in the other examples but it's really no big deal! Julie's option says the same. HNY :-)

agree  B D Finch: Do CMJT and Bourth imagine that British cops catch their robbers more often than the French ones do? The statistics seemed, when I last looked, to show the robbers generally winning!
2 hrs
  -> thanks BD ... this is the way I see it too ... or as Julie said ... staying one step ahead of the game

neutral  juliebarba: I'm just commenting here for the fun of it Suezen, creating a little bit more work for you.....;-)) happy new year btw!
2 hrs
  -> great! thx!! HNY to you too :-))

agree  cenek tomas
3 hrs

agree  Marie-Christine Serra
4 hrs

agree  1045: Yep!
6 hrs
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55 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
game of tug of war


Explanation:
"Gendarmes & voleurs" is a traditional, recreation ground game. I think you need a reference to an English playground game with rules and teams.

I've found "Steal the Bacon" which sounds like "gendarmes" the way my kids play it. Not sure if its well-known though...


    Reference: http://familyfun.go.com/arts-and-crafts/season/feature/famf9...
Emma Paulay
France
Local time: 23:44
Works in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 20

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  katsy: I used to play 'cops and robbers' in my school playground!/ see my 'agree' to suezen about the fun of the chase :-)
5 mins
  -> We all did. But the En version conveys the idea of catching, whereas the Fr version is a more organised "battle", in teams. I feel that the way it is used here is in the sense of a power struggle, not a chase.
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
getting the jump and keeping the lead


Explanation:
There might be something more concise, but I feel this says what is intended. Literal doesn't work here, for me.

Incessant clawing ahead of your opposite number.

xxxBourth
Local time: 23:44
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 42

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Richard Benham: I've been agreeing with you a lot lately; so it's time to back off. If cops and robbers is wrong in English, then it is no better in French. Ants and termites? Tom and Jerry? (Cat and mouse has the same alleged problem as cops and robbers....)
1 hr
  -> Spoilsport! Quite honestly, though, I think the French expression is used in a different way. English kids play "cops and robbers", and you get "C&R" films, but it stops there. The French is used à ttes les sauces.
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44 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
one-upmanship


Explanation:
One-upmanship
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One-upmanship is the systematic and conscious practice of making one's associates feel inferior and thereby gaining the status of being "one-up" on them
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-upmanship

I can't say for certain what the true definition should be here! (cops & robbers / cat and mouse.....). While the phrase initially seems obvious - cops and robbers; it's true that cat & mouse would seem to make more sense....

Anyway, here's my suggestion if you're looking for a phrase that gives the impression of out doing each other

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2008-01-04 11:08:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Ref asker's last note about getting the edge on each other:

'a never-ending cycle of staying one step ahead of the game'

Staying One Step Ahead of the Hackers
http://emagazine.credit-suisse.com/app/article/index.cfm?fus...

Ahn Lab has always tried to be one step ahead of online security threats
http://world.kbs.co.kr/english/economynit/econit_company_det...

Great hackers are always one step ahead of the game
http://www.paintballstar.com/pn/modules.php?op=modload&name=...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2008-01-04 11:20:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

But as Sony tries to stay one step ahead of the hackers, the anonymous programmers are trying some new tricks of their own
http://www.wired.com/gaming/gamingreviews/news/2005/06/67742...

or: A CONSTANT GAME OF CATCH / CATCH UP

Being in the security business is a constant game of catch up.
http://bizsecurity.about.com/od/holisticviewofsecurity/a/Cat...

In the never-ending cat-and-mouse game between hackers and those charged with stopping them, it's pretty clear who's winning--and it's not the cat.
http://www.informationweek.com/software/showArticle.jhtml?ar...

there are many options, if you google a few key words...


juliebarba
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:44
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 17
Grading comment
Thanks. I think what I've learned most from this fascinating series of exchanges is that some people see the point of "cops and robbers" as catching the criminal, while for others the goal is not being caught! I'm not sure what that says about our various personalities! In the mean time, taking a look at my text after the weekend, I think that "one step ahead of the game" fits best in my context. Many thanks to all for your interesting contributions.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Charlie Bavington: I'm not wild about the wikipedia definition, but there is no doubt that your answer encapsulates the Asker's description in the question ("...outdo...") & it has a nice English ring to it :-)
1 hr
  -> thanks Charlie

agree  suezen: staying one step ahead could be a good option
1 hr
  -> thank you

disagree  xxxBourth: Agree in principle, but brinksmanship (nowt to do with cops bazooka-ing armoured vans) is a more intellectual, prestige thing than breaking into a system and making money out of it, etc. "Out-do" is good, Y not stick to that?.
2 hrs
  -> Brinkmanship is something entirely different again!one-upmanship is pretty much the same as trying to out do each other. Besides there are other answers on offer up above in my post
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24 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
it's a typical case of both sides constantly upping the ante....


Explanation:
not the best solution but I am still unhappy about the "cops and robbers" thing. Am I the only one who has difficulty imagining anyone writing or saying that in English in the context as far as we can understand it ?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 47 mins (2008-01-04 10:05:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

the goodies and the baddies

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2008-01-04 10:45:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

IN THE END I WOULD PROBABLY SAY SOMETHING LIKE - It's a never-ending battle of wits

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2008-01-04 10:49:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Two sides - the goodies and the baddies - locked in a never-ending battle of wits

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2008-01-04 11:59:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

reply to BDFinch - if you remark was other than a joke, I think you've missed the point, the point being (as mentioned in the "asker" box) that translation is more than one word for another. It also means coming up with an end result that will mean something to the reader in the target language and IMHO, cops and robbers will not do here. As to whether it is OK in French, I can only say that in French it shocks me not at all, whereas in English it sounds quite wrong

xxxCMJ_Trans
Local time: 23:44
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 68
Notes to answerer
Asker: No. That's why I asked :D . How do people describe the ongoing war between hackers and computer security wonks?


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Richard Benham: Is the French really much better than "cops and robbers"?
2 hrs
  -> actually I "feel" (gut feeling) that it is - and I tend to trust my gut
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4 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
a game of Cowboys and Indians


Explanation:
I don't personally like this option as I dislike the racial implications, but if you're looking for a real game where the are no "goodies" and "baddies" and each team tries to beat the other, this might work slightly better than cops & robbers. Just an idea to keep the ball rolling...

Kathryn Strachecky
Local time: 23:44
Native speaker of: English
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1 day8 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
a game of leapfrog


Explanation:
I am actually quite happy with suezen's suggestion, but this one came to mind, and could possibly (?) include the idea of each trying to outdo the other.
Also thought of "catch me if you can"

katsy
Local time: 23:44
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
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1 day8 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
never-ending battle


Explanation:
Yet another suggestion, which seems to be used quite a bit in the context of internet security and hackers. Less literal maybe ;-).

I DO know that "l'éternel" doesn't necessarily translate by "never-ending" in this context, but the expression itself may well fit your purpose and convey the general meaning of the French.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day8 hrs (2008-01-05 18:17:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

It all depends on how the rest is phrased of course and whether it can be turned around.


    Reference: http://www.google.fr/search?hl=fr&q=%22never+ending+battle+b...
Anne de Freyman
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:44
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: French
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Jan 4, 2008 - Changes made by xxxPFB:
Language pairEnglish to French => French to English


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