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This question was closed without grading. Reason: Other
German to English translations [PRO] Bus/Financial - Accounting
German term or phrase:der Abschlussprüfer
The German legislation seems to make a lot of use of 'der Abschlussprüfer' (cf. §§ 316, 318 ff HGB), so I have been translating it as 'the auditor'. This gets me into trouble sooner or later with 'he/she' and similar constructions. I've been told you can use 'the auditor' but refer to him/her as 'they/them/their' is modern English, although grammatically incorrect. (The verb is then in the plural, of course.) However, checking RobinB's authoritative translation in Fey/Fladt, 'Deutsches Bilanzrecht / German Accounting Legislation' I see Robin has opted for 'the auditors' (sure solves the problem!) In English the issue, as I see it, is gender equality, but perhaps only because English doesn't really 'do' gender, so opting for one or the other does make a gender statement, In French and German, however, it is inherent in the language, so we alternately get used to thinking of the sun as masculine ('le soleil') and the moon as feminine ('la lune'), or, if you speak German, feminine ('die Sonne') bzw. masculine ('der Mond'). What do others think?
"It was clearly stated I should not be challenging anyone with a Cambridge degree and/or 10 years experience."
From which we can draw two conclusions: 1) Experience does not equate to ability. Anybody who translates "GmbH" as "Ltd." really doesn't get it and probably never will. 2) Education does not equate to ability. What sort of an outfit was that?
Although I have to add that I'm married to a Cambridge graduate and, though I do challenge her frequently, she's normally right :-)
Rod Darby (X)
Ghana
ASKER
No apologies for having been at Oxford
11:09 Nov 22, 2012
Rose: I suspect, anyway, that they only accepted me because they felt it was likely I'd help dispel the elitist image... Catching your irony, it seems your educators at that fine University were anything but lowly. P. S. I replied to yours too
784512 (X)
Germany
(btw)
10:57 Nov 22, 2012
I replied to your mail, Rod. :)
784512 (X)
Germany
10:57 Nov 22, 2012
Ah wait, it was actually Oxford he went to... I was born in Cambridge and my parents had certain "experiences" with the students there that meant applying to one of the elite Oxbridge pair was never an option, even when my school was really pushing for it. My lowly educators at Leeds Uni did somehow manage to teach me that "er" does not always mean "he", and "GmbH" never means "Ltd."....
Rod Darby (X)
Ghana
ASKER
whaaaat?
10:49 Nov 22, 2012
you *have* to challenge people with a Cambridge degree (they're used to it anyway)
Rod Darby MA (Oxon.)
784512 (X)
Germany
in some cases
10:46 Nov 22, 2012
you can say "the party", or simply repeat the noun. But yes, at that place where I worked in-house, I got told off for writing anything but he. But then, they also insisted on translating "GmbH" as "Ltd.". It was clearly stated I should not be challenging anyone with a Cambridge degree and/or 10 years experience.
Rose: How can any English native speaker possibly think that "er" can and should only be translated as "he"? Of course, there are any number of numpty non-natives who think that, but we don't do as they say, right?
As far as gender-neutral terms are concerned, I frequently use the "singular they/their", but that won't really work in a legislative text (potential for ambuiguity).
In contracts and similar documents, of course, the simplest way to get round the problem is to use the relevant noun instead of a possessive pronoun, even if it looks ugly to the non-legal eye. For example, use "the Translator's", "Client's", "the Employee's", etc., even if you're repeating it again and again. That's Tom West's advice, and I think the rest of us can accept that he knows more than just about anybody else what he's talking about.
Rod: finanztrans and pt are Yahoo groups: finanztrans is *the* newsgroup for De-En-De financial translation (not very heavy traffic, but extremely high quality), while pt is a general newsgroup for translators into and out of German (newsgroup language is generally German). They're two of the primary "go to" online resources for De-En-De translators. Of course I'll also announce the publication in the "financialtranslators" Yahoo newsgroup (more Francophone than anything else) and the gldlist (the Yahoo newsgroup for the ATA German Language Division).
784512 (X)
Germany
interesting
09:59 Nov 22, 2012
It was my use of "he or she" that was specifically objected to by that agency, so it's interesting that it's since "gone official". ...I still think a gender neutral term would be even better. I wonder if trans/genderqueer people would feel less discriminated against if more major languages didn't draw such gender lines (e.g. Turkish, and I am told, Japanese and maybe Russian, too? I only know Turkish...). I guess the gender neutral term will have to wait until such people are shouting loud enough.
Rod Darby (X)
Ghana
ASKER
well, well, well...
09:32 Nov 22, 2012
Robin: there's something here for everyone - balm for the soul of the grammar purist and a nice salute to gender equality! Even in the days when I was 'on the road' with Deloitte (ça fait un petit moment maintenant) there was just one auditor who supervised and signed off on the team's work, so I'm not at all surprised at the growing number of single-WP audits. I 'do' Deloitte's quarterly Corporate Governance newsletter and have indeed noted over the past years the growing number of very impressive women auditors. Glad to hear there's a successor to Fey/Fladt in the pipeline, but I'm obviously out of touch here in the backwoods of France: could you please drop me a line about the sources of information you mention? Thanks to all for your input.
Rod: You'll no doubt be intrigued to know that the successor publication to Deutsches Bilanzrecht uses the singular and "he or she" in the sections of the HGB referring to the Abschlussprüfer. This was done in part to reflect the growing importance of "single WP" audits in Germany, but also to emphasize the growing number of female auditors in what, in Germany at least, has traditionally been a largely male preserve until very recently.
The successor publication (different title, different publisher) might conceivably appear in December this year, but Q1/2013 is now looking more likely (PwC delayed publication to incorporate amendments resulting from the MikroBilG, so we'll have to wait till that piece of legislation has been passed).
I'll post an announcement on Finanztrans, pt, etc., when the book is finally published.
... and published in the British NUT (National Union of Teachers) magazine. The default pronoun for 'teacher' is 'she'.
Ramey Rieger (X)
Germany
Interesting
21:17 Nov 21, 2012
I have just finished a social science translation into US English where it was REQUIRED to translate any non-specific gender terms (der Arbeiter) with "she".
paerte (X)
Germany
Single person or company performing auditing?
20:06 Nov 21, 2012
If the auditor is generally known to be a single person (rare), or if the context concerns the services performed by an individual, then it's OK to use he/she...if the auditor is a company (KPMG, E&Y, other "Gesellschaften"), then use "it"
Rod Darby (X)
Ghana
ASKER
A good point, Andrew...
16:23 Nov 21, 2012
... but it's going to take some contortions to translate 'seiner' in: "Der Abschlussprüfer kann durch die Anregungen des Aufsichtsrats die Qualität seiner Prüfungstätigkeit verbessern."
Rod Darby (X)
Ghana
ASKER
16:15 Nov 21, 2012
Thanks Rose, I've been an enemy of gender discrimination and gender blindness all my adult life. But we have to distinguish between languages that *cannot* distinguish gender in the article or the noun ('the auditor' doesn't state gender - unless you fancy 'auditress' ;-) ), and we have done quite well with 'actress', 'authoress' and so on. I'm afraid English is the only non gender-specific language I know. In French or German you *have* to say 'le' or 'la' or 'der' or 'die', forcing us translators to do something about it. On a lighter note, I adore 'das Merkel' (but it's not very kind, I admit). My good friend Christine (a gynaecologist) has had to get used to mail addressed to 'Mme le Docteur ..." but it doesn't bother her, she says.
784512 (X)
Germany
another good one
16:14 Nov 21, 2012
...see, no reason to resort to he. That's what bad translators do. :)
It was noted, however, that... Discrepancies were found in the ... The recommendation was that ...
784512 (X)
Germany
Impressed
15:57 Nov 21, 2012
...at your desire to actually translate the gender of a role correctly. A good number of male translators seem happy to go with "he", as in, "the landlord" ... "he" (since only men own property right, and anything else is just an adjustment!). I fell out with the one place I worked in-house for over this issue. They insisted "er" in this context meant he. I tend to go for "the auditors" or "the auditing company" in some cases. Plural is a good cop-out, and it is imho still appropriate to say the auditor and then they when you don't know the person's gender. The matter also goes beyond gender equality, and into "gender blindness", i.e. there are an increasing number of people who live without a gender (in some cultures this is more commonly accepted than others, i.e. Thailand, Native American tribes). A shocking 1% of people are born with qualities of both gender, and imho, I'd rather not make anyone's feelings of gender dysmorphia worse by separating a legal text into he or she all the time.
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
7 mins confidence:
the auditors
Explanation: I agree that this is the neatest way since "the auditor" is like saying Man which can upset some parties.
FoundInTrans United Kingdom Local time: 02:49 Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 3
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