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German to English translations [PRO] Art/Literary - Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting / Art history
German term or phrase:Die heilsgeschichtliche Bestimmung
This appears as part of the title of a 17th-century painting: 'Die heilsgeschichtliche Bestimmung der Jungfrau Maria'. There is, of course, a standard iconography as far as the Virgin Mary is concerned. This painting is likely to have been an oil sketch for a work depicting the Virgin and her parents, so would not fall into the Annunciation category. On which other occasion was Mary's role determined? It must be a standard scene from the life of the Virgin, but I can't for the life of me (!) think how one should translate this. Has anyone come across this before - in relation to the Virgin or any other saints, please?
I do not have an image of this painting and I have searched quite widely on the internet for it.
Explanation: This is a shot in the dark too, but this is the only concept I can think of that would make sense in the context of a picture of Mary with her parents (possible translations like "the redemptive mission of Mary" don't seem right here, and don't convey the sense of "being appointed" that is in "Bestimmung")
The Eternal Predestination of Our Lady
Saturday, 11 July 2009 00:43
This eternal predestination is the first thing to which the Holy Ghost would draw our attention. He does so by the opening words read in the Epistle of the Mass for the day of her Nativity: "Ab aeterno ordinata sum." (Prov 8:23)
So, it is true to say that this amiable Infant, who is called Mary, daughter of Joachim and Ann, has been predestined and chosen by God from all eternity, that in her and by her, He may perform most marvelous things suitable to His eternal designs. http://www.motherofallpeoples.com/Articles/Classic_Mariologi...
As the predestination of Christ to the natural divine sonship is superior to His predestination to glory and precedes it, and as the predestination of Mary to the divine motherhood precedes (in signo priori) her predestination to glory, so also the predestination of St. Joseph to be Foster-father of the Incarnate Word precedes his predestination to glory and to grace. http://www.catholictreasury.info/joseph.php
Thank you so much, Armorel, this is exactly what the client has decided she wants. I still don't know what is depicted, and I imagine that another title might also be fitting, but I am grateful for your assistance either way. 4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer
Thank you. That is a very plausible answer. I will add it to the list of 4 suggestions I'm putting forward to my client. I hope I'll get to hear eventually which is appropriate to their needs and will then let you all know.
I'm a little late, but I'm interested in the answer. My suggestion seems to be an established tradition based on apocryphal material and a significant, though less established, scene in visual cycles on the life of Mary. The translation and information are from Wikipedia, but it looks fairly convincing. Without an image, anything is possible, but this scene includes Mary as a child together with her parents and a revelation of her role in salvation.
With you, Helen, @ "Thanks, Daniel" (minds me of balking @ "Anna Selbdritt" when first encountered) and I do hope your client can send you a pic. or at least a description! Best - Stephen
Just before you posted, I wrote a note to my client suggesting either 'The predestination of the Virgin Mary' or 'The Immaculate Conception', the latter being a standard subject in art of this time. Thanks for further confirmation.
...according to Christian tradition.
I think Armorel's suggestion conveys Bestimmung well.
Taken from the first of the two links below: "In the ... decree, wherein God ordained the Incarnation of the Eternal Word, the Blessed Virgin Mary was predestined to be His Mother, She from whom the Son of God would take His human nature."
In other words, it was at the "moment" when God ordained that His Son should take human form (and save sinners by dying on the cross) that He likewise ordained that Mary should bear Jesus. This dogma is also closely related to that of the Immaculate Conception. http://www.franciscan-archive.org/bvm/bvmlife.html#Predestin... http://www.thesumma.info/reality/reality38.php
It may well be that one should "translate" it as 'The Annunciation to Joachim and Anna". I think I'm going to have to go back to the client on this one. I do wonder whether this title was given by the artist or anyone contemporaneous to the painting.
According to legend, Mary's birth was fortold to Joachim by an angel, after many years of childlessness for his wife, Ann. Could the painting be anything to do with this event?
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Answers
1 hr confidence: peer agreement (net): +2
the predestination of Mary
Explanation: This is a shot in the dark too, but this is the only concept I can think of that would make sense in the context of a picture of Mary with her parents (possible translations like "the redemptive mission of Mary" don't seem right here, and don't convey the sense of "being appointed" that is in "Bestimmung")
The Eternal Predestination of Our Lady
Saturday, 11 July 2009 00:43
This eternal predestination is the first thing to which the Holy Ghost would draw our attention. He does so by the opening words read in the Epistle of the Mass for the day of her Nativity: "Ab aeterno ordinata sum." (Prov 8:23)
So, it is true to say that this amiable Infant, who is called Mary, daughter of Joachim and Ann, has been predestined and chosen by God from all eternity, that in her and by her, He may perform most marvelous things suitable to His eternal designs. http://www.motherofallpeoples.com/Articles/Classic_Mariologi...
As the predestination of Christ to the natural divine sonship is superior to His predestination to glory and precedes it, and as the predestination of Mary to the divine motherhood precedes (in signo priori) her predestination to glory, so also the predestination of St. Joseph to be Foster-father of the Incarnate Word precedes his predestination to glory and to grace. http://www.catholictreasury.info/joseph.php
Armorel Young Local time: 02:56 Works in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 48
Grading comment
Thank you so much, Armorel, this is exactly what the client has decided she wants. I still don't know what is depicted, and I imagine that another title might also be fitting, but I am grateful for your assistance either way.
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks, Armorel, this is a great help. I am still wondering what exactly is depicted - as this text says, it is a rather abstract notion: http://www.philipresheph.com/a424/gallery/concept/iconogr.htm
2 days20 hrs confidence:
Presentation of Mary
Explanation: Since the question is still open and this answer hasn't been eliminated yet, I'll go ahead and add it here as an official answer. Here is my commentary from the discussion:
I'm a little late, but I'm interested in the answer. My suggestion seems to be an established tradition based on apocryphal material and a significant, though less established, scene in visual cycles on the life of Mary. The translation and information are from Wikipedia, but it looks fairly convincing. Without an image, anything is possible, but this scene includes Mary as a child together with her parents and a revelation of her role in salvation.
Asker: Thanks, Johanna, yes, I've seen these clumsy attempts at translating this. I can't for the life of me though imagine that the EN equivalent is anything like this. I suspect we use something completely different. I do appreciate your help nonetheless.
This looks like an easy word to define, but when I consider that pious and learned theologians have spent long lives in explaining it, and written libraries to explain their explanations; when I remember the nations have been divided and bloody battles caused by the difference between foreordination and predestination, and that millions of treasure have been expended in the effort to prove and disprove its compatibility with freedom of the will and the efficacy of prayer, praise, and a religious life, -- recalling these awful facts in the history of the word, I stand appalled before the mighty problem of its signification, abase my spiritual eyes, fearing to contemplate its portentous magnitude, reverently uncover and humbly refer it to His Eminence Cardinal Gibbons and His Grace Bishop Potter. http://www.answers.com/foreordain
casper Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 7
The translation workplace 
peer agreement (net): +2
