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Uneigentlichkeit

English translation: interdependence (here)

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
German term or phrase:Uneigentlichkeit
English translation:interdependence (here)
Entered by: Chris Rowson
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12:34 Jan 16, 2004
German to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary
German term or phrase: Uneigentlichkeit
"Da aber eine Motivkombinatorik weit eher als liedhafte Melodik auch für die Verwendung in den Zwischensätzen und Schlussgruppen geeignet ist, gibt es in diesem wohl dichtesten Sonatensatz des reifen Mendelssohn fast keinen „unthematischen“ Takt, ist das Beziehungsnetz so dicht geknüpft wie in sonst kaum einem Werk. Auch für das Scherzo gilt jenes Prinzip formaler „Uneigentlichkeit“, die eher zur Auflösung als zur Verfestigung tendiert und im Finale scheint der Kontrast gleichermaßen vorzuherrschen."
Chris Rowson
Local time: 15:45
vulgarity
Explanation:
Sorry for proposing yet another answer, but see this summary of "Eigentlichkeit" and "Uneigentlichkeit" referring to Heidegger. Unless I've misunderstood this summary, "eigentlich" seems to refer to the essential aspects of existence (and indeed Collins gives (essentiality for "Eigentlichkeit"), and uneigentlich to the more mundane, vulgar, day-to-day aspects of existence.
If this is is so, then "earthbound" might also be useful in a paraphrase. (Am kind of brainstorming here!)

Also see this definition in the second URL reference:
"Die Uneigentlichkeit bedeutet... nicht etwa ein 'weniger' Sein oder einen 'niedrigeren' Seinsgrad. Die Uneigentlichkeit kann vielmehr das Dasein nach seiner vollsten Konkretion bestimmen in seiner Geschäftigkeit, Angeregtheit, Interessiertheit, Genußfähigkeit" (Heid. SuZ. 43)

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Note added at 2004-01-17 15:59:54 (GMT)
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By summary, I\'m referring to the first URL.
Selected response from:

Dr Andrew Read
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:45
Grading comment
Many thanks for a most thought-provoking set of suggestions. I didn´t in the end directly use any of the translations proposed, but it was through consideration of them that I eventually understood what was really being said here.

The reference is to the further development (this is Mendelssohn) of Beethoven´s practice in his later works of weaving motivic references that go beyond the individual movement to bind together the whole work, or even beyond that to multiple works, into a motivically unitary mass (mess?). So I am interpreting „Uneigentlichkeit“ as meaning that the movements do not have their own essential nature independent of the others, their own proper actuality (to be a bit archaic/philosophical – but on this basis, points to Andrew because the Heidegger references were what unlocked it for me).

To Ciaran: thanks, but I actually find this stuff easier than some of the engineering stuff I used to have to do, because I´m more at home in this contextual background (even where I´m not familiar with the musical style in question). Don´t get much butter for it, though ... :-)
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
3 +2amorphousness / undefinedness / elusivenessntext
4 +1ambivalencexxxdesiderata
4departure
Maureen Holm, J.D., LL.M.
4exceptional feature
R. A. Stegemann
3vulgarity
Dr Andrew Read
2 +1lack of pretentiousness
Textklick
3the unexpectedezbounty@aol.co
3looseness
Dr Andrew Read
2 +1randomness
Dr Andrew Read
2inauthenticity
Cilian O'Tuama
2figurativeness
Jonathan MacKerron
2peculiarity
jerrie


  

Answers


13 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5 peer agreement (net): +1
randomness


Explanation:
Hello again, Chris. My suggestion here is an educated "gut feeling" one, if that makes sense. "Eigentlichkeit" can mean "essentiality" in a philosophical sense, and "uneigentlich" can mean "improper" in a mathematical sense. So somehow the word "random" springs to mind here.

Dr Andrew Read
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:45
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 295

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  gangels: like that. Perhaps 'unreality' would be an option
2 hrs
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15 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
inauthenticity


Explanation:
perhaps (bloody good question!)

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Note added at 2004-01-17 01:58:24 (GMT)
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FWIW, an amazing 16 googles for \"uneigentlichkeit\' AND \'inauthenticity\' AND \'Heidegger\' (though this is way above me).

Chris, if this is your normal bread-and-butter translation, then Hats off, Respekt!



Cilian O'Tuama
Local time: 15:45
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in pair: 7232
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17 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
looseness


Explanation:
Second guess - this fits better, methinks. Also thought of "informality", but that's probably going too far, and clashes with "formal".

Dr Andrew Read
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:45
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 295
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37 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
amorphousness / undefinedness / elusiveness


Explanation:
Just to add to the confusion. :)

ntext
United States
Local time: 08:45
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in pair: 2954

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Michele Johnson: especially because of the tendency towards Auflösung
46 mins

agree  Edhild: I like elusiveness is this context
2 hrs
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43 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
peculiarity


Explanation:
as another wild idea, very loosely based around this link where Uneigentlichkeit is linked with Eigentuemlichkeit...

so a mixture of improper with unique characteristic....

maybe this will lead somebody to a better suggestion!

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Note added at 2004-01-16 14:00:36 (GMT)
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idiosyncrasy....


    Reference: http://raptusassociation.org/son13g.html
jerrie
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:45
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 1469
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
exceptional feature


Explanation:
The author states that "Motifkombinatorik" is more appropriate than "liedhafte Melodik" for "Zwischensaetzen" and "Schlussgruppen", and at the same time suggests that "Motifkombinatorik" is used in other ways. This presumes an unusually intensive use of "Motifkombinatorik" that is later confirmed when author states that there is almost no beat that does not adhere to the "Motifkombinatorik" -- namely, the "thematischer Takt" of the piece. Thus, it is the intensive use of "Motifkombinatorik" that is "uneigentlich".

What I find troublesome about this passage is not the word "Uneigentlichkeit", rather the phrase "Prinzip formaler Uneigentlichkeit". Can one develop a Prinzip within the framework of a single sonat? Moreover what formalizes the "Uneigentlichkeit", if only its intensive use?

What we appear to know is that the "Motifkombinatorik" is also applied to the scherzo resulting in a loosening of the thematic framework, so intensely applied in that which came before. This would make sense, in so far as a scherzo is suppose to be playful, anyway.

Thus I agree with Jerrie when she states that "Uneigentlichkeit" means pecularity, but one cannot meaningfully write "a principal of formal pecularity".

Thus, I suggest "exceptional feature" as a plausible work-around for the phrase "Prinzip formaler Uneigentlichkeit".





--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2004-01-16 15:25:15 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Correction: The word \"principal\" should have read \"principle\".

R. A. Stegemann
Saudi Arabia
Local time: 22:45
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 285
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
figurativeness


Explanation:
based on the translation in Collins, and the definition in Webster:
": representing or represented by a figure or resemblance *the figurative art of the humanistic tradition Herbert Read*
2 : transferred in sense from literal or plain to abstract or hypothetical (as by the expression of one thing in terms of another with which it can be regarded as analogous) : METAPHORICAL *figurative language* *in a figurative sense, civilization marches up and down Lewis Mumford*
3 : characterized by figures of speech or elaborate expression *a figurative description* *a figurative author"

Jonathan MacKerron
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 5577

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Dr Andrew Read: But difficult to see how this could be used in a musical context...
2 hrs
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
ambivalence


Explanation:
The emphasis being on contrast between what _appears_, in the sense of a dissolving of structure, and what _"eigentlich"_ is at work as aesthetic principle: by combining the thematic interconnections. It is something like a formally-adopted "Doppelboedigkeit" that I translate as a principle of deliberate ambivalence. Like those figures that keep changing back and forth depending on how your brain takes them in.

xxxdesiderata
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 205

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Fantutti: Yest, that's it for me. I like your explanation, too.
4 hrs
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4 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
the unexpected


Explanation:
the unanticipated

options, my brainstorms

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2004-01-16 19:52:21 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

ABERRATION

ezbounty@aol.co
Local time: 07:45
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in pair: 287
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
vulgarity


Explanation:
Sorry for proposing yet another answer, but see this summary of "Eigentlichkeit" and "Uneigentlichkeit" referring to Heidegger. Unless I've misunderstood this summary, "eigentlich" seems to refer to the essential aspects of existence (and indeed Collins gives (essentiality for "Eigentlichkeit"), and uneigentlich to the more mundane, vulgar, day-to-day aspects of existence.
If this is is so, then "earthbound" might also be useful in a paraphrase. (Am kind of brainstorming here!)

Also see this definition in the second URL reference:
"Die Uneigentlichkeit bedeutet... nicht etwa ein 'weniger' Sein oder einen 'niedrigeren' Seinsgrad. Die Uneigentlichkeit kann vielmehr das Dasein nach seiner vollsten Konkretion bestimmen in seiner Geschäftigkeit, Angeregtheit, Interessiertheit, Genußfähigkeit" (Heid. SuZ. 43)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2004-01-17 15:59:54 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

By summary, I\'m referring to the first URL.


    Reference: http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/34...
    Reference: http://www.gottwein.de/Eth/Exist01.htm
Dr Andrew Read
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:45
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 295
Grading comment
Many thanks for a most thought-provoking set of suggestions. I didn´t in the end directly use any of the translations proposed, but it was through consideration of them that I eventually understood what was really being said here.

The reference is to the further development (this is Mendelssohn) of Beethoven´s practice in his later works of weaving motivic references that go beyond the individual movement to bind together the whole work, or even beyond that to multiple works, into a motivically unitary mass (mess?). So I am interpreting „Uneigentlichkeit“ as meaning that the movements do not have their own essential nature independent of the others, their own proper actuality (to be a bit archaic/philosophical – but on this basis, points to Andrew because the Heidegger references were what unlocked it for me).

To Ciaran: thanks, but I actually find this stuff easier than some of the engineering stuff I used to have to do, because I´m more at home in this contextual background (even where I´m not familiar with the musical style in question). Don´t get much butter for it, though ... :-)
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44 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5 peer agreement (net): +1
lack of pretentiousness


Explanation:
principle of a formal lack of pretentiousness

But I might be off course here.

Decode Duden:
Un|ei|gent|lich|keit, die: Zustand, der einer Sache od. jmdm. uneigentlich zukommt: Es ist ein junger Mann von 22 Jahren, der in dieser Rede die Rokokokultur mit ihrem welken Charme der U., ihren listigen Schizophrenien und ihrem moribunden Manierentheater vernichtend heiter attackiert (Sloterdijk, Kritik 216).

As in: "An unassuming little Burgundy, but I think you'll be amused by its lack of pretentiousness"

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Note added at 7 hrs 44 mins (2004-01-16 20:19:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Thanks Andrew;
I think we are reading fron the same libretto. Put it down to a lifelong fondness for JSB, but I couldn\'t stretch to \"vulgarity\", although I can hear Melvyn Bragg saying it :-) (A respected cultural commentator in the U.K. for those of you guys unfamiliar with his name) BTW: I asked a few (very good) pro German translators who had to check Duden themselves prior to rumination and even desperation...

Textklick
Local time: 14:45
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in pair: 1097

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Dr Andrew Read: Think this is getting towards the "vulgarity" I mention in my third attempt - see refs below...
4 hrs
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1 day13 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
departure


Explanation:
The comparative basis is the tightly woven vs. the deviation from the motif. Apparently, the exposition and development segments of the work are so, but the variation departs as far as formal principle allows in the scherzo section. Then, somehow (because it's Mendelsohn), he manages a finale which is satisfying because it both returns to theme (even melody), while still echoing the departures.

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Note added at 1 day 13 hrs 38 mins (2004-01-18 02:13:25 GMT)
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And a MATURE Mendelsohn.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 13 hrs 46 mins (2004-01-18 02:21:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Interesting review of new piece here, which at times \"kaempft mit sich selber.\"

http://www1.ndr.de/ndr_pages_std/0,2570,OID163500_REF762,00....

\"mit dem Zitat einer Melodiefloskel des Adagio aus Mahlers Neunter gefunden scheint – und sich dann unmittelbar wieder verliert –\"

Maureen Holm, J.D., LL.M.
United States
Local time: 09:45
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 986
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