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der Vernichtung zugeteilt werden

English translation: sentence

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10:56 Jul 18, 2002
German to English translations [PRO]
Bus/Financial / Dental Ceramics
German term or phrase: der Vernichtung zugeteilt werden
This is another case where I'm not altogether happy with the dictionaries' suggestions. Here's the sentence:

"Ich bitte bei Erhalt der Neuen die alte Broschüre nach X zurückzuschicken, da sie dort der Vernichtung zugeteilt wird."

It's the last four words I'm having trouble with. "Assigned for destruction"? "Apportioned for destruction"? Doesn't ring right. "Reserved for destruction"? Hmm, maybe a little better. (The dictionaries don't suggest "reserve"; I just thought of it.) "Set aside for destruction", even? But they can't be set aside until they're actually sent!

At the moment, I'm just saying, "they (the old brochures) have to be destroyed there". But would still welcome your thoughts.
Rowan Morrell
New Zealand
Local time: 00:16
English translation:sentence
Explanation:
Following receipt of the new brochure, please return the previous one to be destroyed.

You could say "return for disposal", but destroy is OK. You wouldn't want to say "return for destruction". They mean "um eingestampft zu werden", I think. Nowadays, old documents are "shredded", so you might say "return for shredding", but hey, why go off on a tangent?
Selected response from:

gangels
Local time: 06:16
Grading comment
This was a tough one to grade. Very tough. A lot of interesting answers, plenty of lively debate too. Definitely a case where more than one person deserves the points! I chose this answer in the end because the phrasing was closest to what I ultimately went with. (I ended up saying, "When you receive the new brochure, please return the old one to X to be destroyed.") Actually, I was more bothered by "zugeteilt" than "Vernichtung", though it was "Vernichtung" that created the greatest controversy! I am in agreement with Mary about "destroyed" being perfectly acceptable in English. Special thanks to Mary for the interesting contributions she made here. Also to Steffen P. and Steffen W., TService and basically, everyone who took part in tackling this question. Commiserations to those who missed out. Unfortunately, I can't award consolation points!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
5 +4......where they will be shredded.Kerstin Harold
3 +5collected and destroyed
Mary Worby
4 +3where they will be disposed of.xxxhartran
5 +1The German is bad style...Steffen Pollex
4 +1they have the facility to dispose of them (there)
jerrie
5...where they will be destroyed
Edward L. Crosby III
4sentencegangels


Discussion entries: 4





  

Answers


4 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +5
collected and destroyed


Explanation:
I think the solution of just saying they get destroyed is a pretty good one! Essentially, I presume they\'ll gather up a big pile of the old brochures before sending them to the shredder / incinerator ...

How about \'sent to be destroyed\'
Or
When you receive your new brochure, please return the old one to X for destruction.

HTH

Mary

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Note added at 2002-07-18 12:22:41 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I don\'t really understand the problem with destroying brochures, it sounds perfectly natural to me (-: Reference here: http://www.hanford.gov/reach/viewpdf.cfm?aid=504

While I agree that disposing also sounds good, the German definitely says Vernichtung which is not the same thing. We can only ever translate what is in front of, not what we think the author wanted to say or should have said!

FWIW

Mary

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-07-18 12:53:19 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Steffen (W), you raise a valid point! And (sorry for hijacking your question here, Rowan) it is an issue to which there are no solid rules. In an ideal scenario, the translator would be able to consult with the author to discuss what the original intentions were and get exactly the same meaning both on the lines and in between them. But in the modern, fast-moving world we live in, this is rarely an option, so we have to take texts at face value ...

I could go on! Maybe, as you say, the forums would be a better place (-:

Mary Worby
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:16
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 2770

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Mats Wiman: More complete
6 mins

neutral  xxxhartran: I don't agree with the notion of destroying brochures.
11 mins

neutral  Steffen Pollex: Mary, the "vernichten" in German sounds perfect, but would you really use "destroy" in English when it is about books or papers? Sounds like no good English to me.
1 hr
  -> Sorry Steffen, but as a born and bred English person, it doesn't sound even remotely odd to me! (-:

neutral  xxxTService: IF the text deals with Bradbury's "Fahrenheit 451" the phrase might be correct. ;)
1 hr

agree  Steffen Walter: with destroy - sounds not at all odd to me in this context. Mary, when juxtaposing two different bits of your opinion, isn't there a contradiction? "I *presume* they'll gather up..." vs "We can only ever translate what is in front of, ..." ;-)
1 hr
  -> Oh dear, you're not actually supposed to read the whole thing! You're right, it's very difficult to stick to what is actually there! (-:

agree  pschmitt
2 hrs

agree  Kim Metzger: Vernichten is to destroy
4 hrs

agree  Terry Gilman: destroyed (done it myself with a shredder) or disposed of; will prob be shredded+recycled, but "shred" is so concrete, your German client might then be prompted to search for other "wrong" 1:1 translations.
7 hrs
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5 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +4
......where they will be shredded.


Explanation:
This should be the right translation for the context.

Kerstin Harold
Ireland
Local time: 14:16
PRO pts in pair: 15

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Steffen Pollex: This is my favourite version, too, once it's paper. Your's was not on yet when I started writing. How's Dublin?
8 mins

neutral  Mary Worby: I don't think we can assume that the brochures are shredded. They could easily be destroyed in some other way ...(-:
12 mins

agree  nettranslatorde
49 mins

neutral  Edward L. Crosby III: Mary, I agree. They might be incinerated.
1 hr

agree  m-svenja: leuchtet völlig ein
2 hrs

neutral  xxxhartran: as translator, you really commit yourself when you use this; in my opinion, this should only be used if this is indeed the way they get rid of the brochures. But what do they then do with the shredded paper?
3 hrs

agree  stefana
8 hrs
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5 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
they have the facility to dispose of them (there)


Explanation:
It is easier for them to be disposed of there

perhaps

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-07-18 11:42:00 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

dispose - to get rid of, to (re) distribute (recycle), to apply to a particular purpose
disposable - intended to be thrown away or destroyed (after use)

I think dispose would encompass shredding, destroying, recycling whatever. X would appear to have the facility to do this on a grand scale.


jerrie
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:16
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 1469

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Kathi Stock: sounds best to me...to be disposed
27 mins
  -> Thanks
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11 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
The German is bad style...


Explanation:
In German it should read "der Vernichtung zugeführt", not "zugeteilt". This would mean "extinction" or "wasting". But in English, IMO, a verb would do better, just sounds better. So why not to write "they will be wasted" or, since it is about papers, you may even use "shreddered", I guess. At least, for the reader it doesn't really make a difference what will happen to the old papers after he will send them in, right?

Steffen Pollex
Local time: 14:16
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman, Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in pair: 503

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  nettranslatorde
43 mins

neutral  Kim Metzger: Dear Steffen, maybe you ought to refrain from telling native English speakers what sounds good in English.
4 hrs
  -> I am not "telling" anyone anything, I am stating my opinion. What you do with it - up to you. Please, correct me if I am wrong, always happy to learn. And "native", as we have to learn sometimes, does not necessarily mean proper understanding or style.
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19 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +3
where they will be disposed of.


Explanation:
I don't see anything about collection in the German. And although old paper is often shredded, the brochures could just as easily be dumped, recycled, burned, etc. This is why I prefer the verb to dispose of since it covers it all without specifying one single process.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-07-18 12:16:15 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Paper plays an important role in society today, but its production and disposal cause much more damage to the environment than is necessary.
When disposed of in landfill sites, the anaerobic conditions (no ... As well as taking old newspapers etc. ...
www.ecocentre.org.uk/resources/recycling.htm


xxxhartran
Local time: 14:16
PRO pts in pair: 57

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  xxxTService: That's it. As Steffen remarked, the german style is quite awful and not to be taken literally.
6 mins
  -> Absolutely. I agree with Steffen too.

neutral  Mary Worby: Whether the German is poor style or not, it does say that they are destroyed and not disposed of ...why send something off to get it disposed of rather than just binning it yourself? (-:
10 mins
  -> It's not at all unusual for the wrong word to be used in a source text. I encounter this more often than I would like (in all 3 languages I translate and in every conceivable sort of text. Even lawyers use the wrong word sometimes.)

agree  Steffen Walter: But Mary, on second thought, this option does seem equally valid and general enough to encompass any possible method of getting rid of the stuff.
2 hrs
  -> Agree with you Steffen. The neutrality of the term is why I went for it. My idea of getting the correct meaning without sticking my neck out.

agree  Terry Gilman: Yes, Still, if you don't know your client, the 1:1 "destroyed" might be safer still. With d. of, you get queries about "verfügen." Could it be that dispose of = put in the trash permanently is more US usage (from garbage disposals)?
7 hrs
  -> No it's got nothing to do with a garbage disposal unit.It's the intensity of the German word vernichten.destruction is visible; you can see something that was destroyed but when something is vernichtet, it is really gone forever and not around to see.
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
...where they will be destroyed


Explanation:
same as just "vernichtet"

Edward L. Crosby III
Local time: 05:16
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 527
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
sentence


Explanation:
Following receipt of the new brochure, please return the previous one to be destroyed.

You could say "return for disposal", but destroy is OK. You wouldn't want to say "return for destruction". They mean "um eingestampft zu werden", I think. Nowadays, old documents are "shredded", so you might say "return for shredding", but hey, why go off on a tangent?

gangels
Local time: 06:16
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in pair: 5465
Grading comment
This was a tough one to grade. Very tough. A lot of interesting answers, plenty of lively debate too. Definitely a case where more than one person deserves the points! I chose this answer in the end because the phrasing was closest to what I ultimately went with. (I ended up saying, "When you receive the new brochure, please return the old one to X to be destroyed.") Actually, I was more bothered by "zugeteilt" than "Vernichtung", though it was "Vernichtung" that created the greatest controversy! I am in agreement with Mary about "destroyed" being perfectly acceptable in English. Special thanks to Mary for the interesting contributions she made here. Also to Steffen P. and Steffen W., TService and basically, everyone who took part in tackling this question. Commiserations to those who missed out. Unfortunately, I can't award consolation points!
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