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12:00 Aug 12, 2010
German to English translations [PRO] Social Sciences - History
German term or phrase:territorialfürstlicher Wohlstand
The full sentence reads:
Handel und Gewerbe hatten also die Grundsteine für die Entfaltung des territorialfürstlichen Wohlstandes gelegt.
Goodness, I woke up this morning to find a fair old feud going on with my post. So sorry not to have been present earlier.
Sadly the piece I am translating seems to exist of sentences and ideas plucked out of thin air with very little cohesion. Had it been clearer exactly why the word "territorialfürstlich" had been selected, I wouldn't be in such a quandry with it. I have been given an introduction (to what I have no idea) to translate and the style of it leaves a great deal to be desired.
There is mention of the many castles, stately homes and palaces on the one hand and the industrialisation of the cities on the other, demonstrating the crassness of the situation. But as to "territorialfürstlich", I have no idea. Warmongering appears later in the article.
It is almost as though the auther has jotted down ideas for a later book but not put them into any order.
During his lifetime John acquired two epithets. One was "Lackland" (French: Sans Terre), because, as his father's youngest son, he did not inherit land out of his family's holdings, and because as King he lost significant territory to France. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_England
Don't know what you mean by that. I am not suggesting you do anybody's research for them, just suggesting as you do to me that you back up your own assertions. You might be interested in a note I have just quickly appended to my own post. Now off to do the unpacking in the hope that the level of aggression will have diminished by my return. (And Jim, it does not reside particularly with you, before you reply).
I'm not making any assertions about an expanded meaning of the term. Note that you are suggesting I do your research for you, not the asker's!
I'm not sure how to look for something whose existence I doubt (but am willing to be convinced)!
It would be far faster if we were provided with some context - suitable for the highly educated German-speaker that we all are (despite some assertions otherwise). I do not have the time, having just moved house, to do someone else's research for them, and you yourself have declined to do so as well, I note.
"The sentence in question is intended for an introduction to Thüringen and spans its socio-political history from the beginning of time. If that helps at all."
And btw. - A somewhat instructed German reader needs no further context to that sentence than what was given in order to situate this clearly in the context of the 800 years of wranling between the Territorial Powers and the Central Power.
I deleted the comment because I did not feel the ecclesiastical meaning was the only possible one; hence your rejection of that meaning did not constitute a resolution of the problem, and I just didn't want to go into it in detail.
May I ask why you removed the comment you appended to my suggestion earlier? Did you lack confidence in it or change your mind for some other reason? I would happily accept Colin's suggestion, if it fits; I really have no problem with that.
... is cite an example of this German term meaning "landed" prince -- or even "landed" anything would be good. Otherwise it's hard to see leaving the notion of "territorium", or official jurisdiction of some sort from which the princes derive their power.
http://www.tyndale.org/TSJ/22/kawabata.html
"In letters addressed to territorial princes, German peasants asked them to show exactly what part of the Bible said that rivers should belong to the princes as their private property."
I don't see anyone here 'playing around with historical terms', Jim. If the context calls for it, then 'territorial princes' it is. We have no context, so it is anyone's guess. If there is no eccesiastical context, then 'landed princes' would be better. I am sure M00nshine is more than competent to judge, so in the meantime, please, less aggression amongst peers and the ability to discuss without anger would be nice.
While Roland and I will have to agree to disagree over "unfurling", we are united in championing the cause of Territorial Princes! The link between Territorialfürsten and Territorialstaaten is illustrated in the following article (excerpt below):
Durch die Verleihung wichtiger Königsrechte erhielten die zeitweise über dreihundert Einzelterritorien des Heiligen Römischen Reiches Deutscher Nation nach und nach die Landeshoheit, die den jeweiligen Territorialfürsten eine weitgehend eigenständige und unbeschränkte Herrschaftsausübung ermöglichte.
In your link, the term "unfurling the outskirts" refers to a metaphorical unrolling, or opening up, of 'outlying' countries like Canada.
Look at the Brodsky quote in your article, Roland: "contrary to popular belief, the outskirts are not where the world ends--they are precisely where it begins to unfurl'.
Here the meaning is "open up" or "expand in a new direction", but the metaphor remains one of cloth, as (e.g.) a sail.
"Unfurling the outskirts: Canada's new spirit emerges from prosperity, social democracy and environmental consciousness."
Where is the flag here? And here? -
"Joseph Brodsky has suggested that 'contrary to popular belief, the outskirts are not where the world ends--they are precisely where it begins to unfurl'. (6) If Canada is considered at the outskirts of a world that is dominated by America and the European Community, the new architecture being created there clearly indicates that it is a place of significance and one where another very different world is unfurling.
"territorial" in "territorialfürstlich" is certainly more than "landed" in "landed gentry".
In a way, a "prince without land" is a bit in a conundrum anyhow. Thought there had of course been the ecclesiastical princes that may have been less linked to landed property.
But the Territorialfürsten headed the Terrritorialstaaten - as opposed to the overwhelming imperial statehood of the Holy Roman Empire. - A frequent term in this context are the Territorialgewalten.
And in all these terms "landed" is to little avail - territorial tom cats or not.
The sentence in question is intended for an introduction to Thüringen and spans its socio-political history from the beginning of time. If that helps at all.
The translation workplace 
peer agreement (net): +2