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Reichs,-Wahl- und Handelstadt

English translation: Imperial, Electoral and Mercantile City


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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
German term or phrase:Reichs,-Wahl- und Handelstadt
English translation:Imperial, Electoral and Mercantile City
Entered by: British Diana
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11:58 Nov 17, 2010
German to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - History / Description of Frankfurt
German term or phrase: Reichs,-Wahl- und Handelstadt
I'm working on an exhibition for the Goethehaus in Frankfurt. There are to be explanatory "Stele" (what's this in EN?) with texts and pictures in DE and in EN. This is the title of the first one and on the next there are the words "Frankfurt am Main". The best translation will include elements of all three terms (Reichsstadt, Wahlstadt and Handelsstadt) and I assume it is aimed at describing Frankfurt's importance in Goethe's day. I can imagine "Economic Centre" for Handelsstadt, Reichstadt might be "Free Imperial City", but what about "Wahlstadt" - "Electoral City" ?Can I combine them to "Free Imperial and Electoral City"or is this not historically correct? Another problem arises (graphically speaking) if the EN gets much longer than the GE, the whole thing is a title in upper case.
Please help and give me some pointers, if necessary I can allow my client to decide. TIA !
British Diana
Germany
Local time: 03:08
Imperial and Electoral City and economic centre
Explanation:
'Trade city' or 'commercial city' sounds a bit forced to me. I would suggest slight judicious re-writing.

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Note added at 19 hrs (2010-11-18 07:55:32 GMT)
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How about: Imperial, electoral and mercantile city?

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Note added at 20 hrs (2010-11-18 08:02:19 GMT)
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http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UAY9ugffPXQC&pg=PA88&lpg=...

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Note added at 1 day21 hrs (2010-11-19 09:31:47 GMT) Post-grading
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Thanks Diana - wish I could share the points with Andrew for his merchants.
Selected response from:

Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:08
Grading comment
I have used Helen's final suggestion with capital letters all through as it is a title. Thank you, everybody, for the history-lesson-in-a-nutshell and the great links. If only one's clients realized what thought we sometimes have to put into just three words!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
3 +4City of emperors, prince electors and merchantsAndrew Swift
3 +1Imperial and Electoral City and economic centre
Helen Shiner
4Imperial, Electoral and trading city
YorickJenkins
Summary of reference entries provided
Wahlstadt
Susan Welsh

Discussion entries: 4





  

Answers


1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +4
City of emperors, prince electors and merchants


Explanation:
I don’t like to use ‘electors’ in isolation because it has a different meaning in modern political usage and would therefore be confusing until the visitor reads what is underneath.

I think ‘merchants’ is more in keeping with the mediaeval theme of this part of the exhibition.

Helen’s version and mine each contain 47 characters including spaces. This one goes down to 40 if you omit ‘prince’.

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Note added at 22 hrs (2010-11-18 10:42:28 GMT)
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"Emperors, prince electors and merchants" is probably quite adequate on its own in the context and cuts down on the number of characters.
If you want to stick with 'imperial' and 'electoral', the adjectival form of 'merchant' is of course 'mercantile'.

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Note added at 22 hrs (2010-11-18 10:48:33 GMT)
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However, my reservations about using 'electors' on its own applies equally to 'electoral' which, at first glance, seems to be something about the modern political system, e.g. electoral reform.

Andrew Swift
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:08
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 144
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thank you Andrew for your suggestion and I particularly like the "merchants" bit. However I am not so sure about "City of..." in my context


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Slindon: This is a good solution and sounds much better than 'Imperial, electoral and commercial city!.
19 mins

agree  Paul Skidmore
1 hr

agree  Helen Shiner: Far better unless it is supposed to include present-day commerce.
1 hr
  -> Congrats. Some small compensation for the Gesetzmäßigkeiten shambles.

agree  Wendy Streitparth: Very neat
5 hrs

agree  Rosa Paredes
7 hrs

disagree  YorickJenkins: Wahlstadt is "Electoral City". That is a city (Frankfurt was one) with a right to elect a new emperor in the First Reich (HRE) . I think there is no choice about that
1 day3 hrs
  -> Alas, Yorick. You have done for me...
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1 day5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
Imperial, Electoral and trading city


Explanation:
Reichsstadt is "Imperial city" referring to the so-called Holy Roman Empire, or First Reich. Electoral City is a fixed expression and should not be changed. Handelsstadt I would translate as trading city-I would have agreed with Helen's answer, except that she changed from city to center for Handelsstadt. I don't know why (economic centre is a sudden slip to the modern where here we are looking for a unity for the time, that is why the German deliberately refers to one root, Reich-Wahl-Handel refelecting incidentally the three fold function dear to the Middle Ages of the spiritual-relgious (Reich), economic (Handel) and political (Wahl) implying the complete three fold role of Frankfurt in the Middle Ages.)
"city of Emperors" seems to me quite misleading giving the impression that Frankfurt had an especially high score birth rate in emperors!-as when you say Brugge is a city of bridges, meaning they have a lot of bridges there. City of emperors is NOT the meaning of Reichstadt.

YorickJenkins
Local time: 03:08
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
Notes to answerer
Asker: Dear Jorick, thank you for your comprehenmsive imput which basically confirms what I had already learnt from the earlier posters. I did not like "city of" for the same reasons that you give. However "trading" is not quite optimal here.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Helen Shiner: The context wasn't clear at first - we didn't know whether all terms were referring to a single moment in time, so to speak, or the entire history of Frankfurt. 'Economic city' would have sounded naff in the extreme. Did you not read my second suggestion?
49 mins
  -> Sorry Helen I did overlook your second suggestion-"mercantile" and "trading" are both possible choices I think

neutral  Andrew Swift: Your three adjectives sit rather uncomfortably together, with 'trading' as a rather inadequate substitute for ‘mercantile’. Who exactly decides when an expression qualifies for the status of ‘fixed’? And why the Big E?
3 hrs
  -> Imperial and Electoral are historically fixed terms-it was the third word which wa sopen to interpretation
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31 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
Imperial and Electoral City and economic centre


Explanation:
'Trade city' or 'commercial city' sounds a bit forced to me. I would suggest slight judicious re-writing.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 hrs (2010-11-18 07:55:32 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

How about: Imperial, electoral and mercantile city?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 hrs (2010-11-18 08:02:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UAY9ugffPXQC&pg=PA88&lpg=...

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Note added at 1 day21 hrs (2010-11-19 09:31:47 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Thanks Diana - wish I could share the points with Andrew for his merchants.

Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:08
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 65
Grading comment
I have used Helen's final suggestion with capital letters all through as it is a title. Thank you, everybody, for the history-lesson-in-a-nutshell and the great links. If only one's clients realized what thought we sometimes have to put into just three words!
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thank you Helen.I share your misgivings about "economic centre" but much prefer "Imperial and Electoral City" for the first bit. Any way of using Andrew's "merchants" idea with it?


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Andrew Swift: Apparently, ‘Electoral city’ (with a Big E) is a ‘fixed expression’ (see below). In which case, Diana might as well have a sequence of three matching adjectives: imperial, electoral, commercial.
1 day8 hrs
  -> Thanks, Andrew, I prefer your 'mercantile' notion to 'commercial' if it is all of a period, as seems to be the case./I might have started the big 'E' thing - its a title for an exhibition banner/display, but I evidently lacked confidence by the end of it.
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Reference comments


16 mins peer agreement (net): +1
Reference: Wahlstadt

Reference information:
Die Goldene Bulle von 1356 bestätigte Frankfurt ab 1356 als ständige Wahlstadt der römischen Könige, nachdem hier schon seit 1147 die meisten Königswahlen stattgefunden hatten. Ab 1562 wurde der Kaiser auch in Frankfurt gekrönt, als letzter 1792 der Habsburger Franz II.

This clarifies what sort of "election" they are talking about, but I don't know how you say it in English.


    Reference: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_am_Main
Susan Welsh
United States
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
Note to reference poster
Asker: Thank you, Susan, this is indeed a useful reference and now I know what sort of "election" is being referred to.


Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  Helen Shiner: http://www.frankfurthigh.com/history/subpages/USFET_Frankfur...
4 mins
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