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bis auf

English translation: except for

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
German term or phrase:bis auf
English translation:except for
Entered by: Astrid Elke Witte
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14:24 Sep 7, 2006
German to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law: Patents, Trademarks, Copyright / Court proceedings
German term or phrase: bis auf
I believe that "bis auf" can mean, at different times, either "except for" or "including". What would it mean in the following sentence, or would it not be possible to tell without checking up on the previous document?

"Der Kläger beantragt bis auf einen unbefristeten gestellten Auskunftsantrag wie erkannt."
Astrid Elke Witte
Germany
Local time: 23:58
except for
Explanation:
Without knowing to what "wie erkannt" refers (normally the different items in a judgement), I, as a native German speaker, understand that the plaintiff applies as stated in the judgement (he more or less accepts it), except for, excluding/apart from the request for information, which shall be maintained/continue to be valid. There are not so many other meanings of "bis auf".


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Note added at 50 Min. (2006-09-07 15:15:17 GMT)
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@Astrid, you're right with your example, but that's a very idiomatic expresssion, which is used for very special situations only. In my opinion this makes no sense here. Why should the plaintiff/lawyer accept all items up to/including such a request, then it would not be necessary to mention it expressly, then it's simply "wie erkannt". The "unbefristet" may also be important.

@Sybille: Das "wie erkannt" ist ein feststehender Ausdruck in Urteilen, da braucht man kein Objekt, weil das "wie erkannt" in diesem Fall eigentlich das Objekt ist (eben die Punkte im Urteil), klingt blöd, ist aber so ;-)
Selected response from:

lisa23
Germany
Local time: 23:58
Grading comment
Thanks for your patient explanations, Elisabeth. I have meanwhile also found the file, with the previous instalment of the story, and that also shows that it means "except for". The sentence came in the middle of a very abstract Beschluss issued by the Court and, without any context, I could not make any sense of the sentence at all at first. The previous instalment dates from a couple of months ago, and I have translated a lot of other things inbetween.

Astrid
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
3 +1except for
lisa23


Discussion entries: 3





  

Answers


26 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
bis auf (here)
except for


Explanation:
Without knowing to what "wie erkannt" refers (normally the different items in a judgement), I, as a native German speaker, understand that the plaintiff applies as stated in the judgement (he more or less accepts it), except for, excluding/apart from the request for information, which shall be maintained/continue to be valid. There are not so many other meanings of "bis auf".


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 50 Min. (2006-09-07 15:15:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

@Astrid, you're right with your example, but that's a very idiomatic expresssion, which is used for very special situations only. In my opinion this makes no sense here. Why should the plaintiff/lawyer accept all items up to/including such a request, then it would not be necessary to mention it expressly, then it's simply "wie erkannt". The "unbefristet" may also be important.

@Sybille: Das "wie erkannt" ist ein feststehender Ausdruck in Urteilen, da braucht man kein Objekt, weil das "wie erkannt" in diesem Fall eigentlich das Objekt ist (eben die Punkte im Urteil), klingt blöd, ist aber so ;-)

lisa23
Germany
Local time: 23:58
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in category: 12
Grading comment
Thanks for your patient explanations, Elisabeth. I have meanwhile also found the file, with the previous instalment of the story, and that also shows that it means "except for". The sentence came in the middle of a very abstract Beschluss issued by the Court and, without any context, I could not make any sense of the sentence at all at first. The previous instalment dates from a couple of months ago, and I have translated a lot of other things inbetween.

Astrid
Notes to answerer
Asker: For another meaning of "bis auf" the Collins dictionary gives as an example, "Das Schiff ging unter und sie ertranken alle, bis auf den letzten Mann." In that case, it would mean "including".


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Ruth Wiedekind: Sehe ich auch so. Dieser Antrag (wie erkannt) ist ein anderer als der für unbefristete Zeit gestellte Antrag auf Auskunft. Unbefristet ist nicht unwichtig hier!
30 mins
  -> danke, danke, danke, ich finde den Satz eigentlich völlig klar, übersetzte aber auch viel so "unliebsames Zeugs"
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Changes made by editors
Sep 7, 2006 - Changes made by Steffen Walter:
Term askedbis auf (here) » bis auf


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